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2013-10-18 The Ringer
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No idea if the werecoyotes eat cats, but keeping your kitties inside is good regardless.

My wardrobe actually sucks a lot right now, because most of the cool stuff has fallen apart or become too small, etc. I still have some ruffled shirts, a velvet thingamabob, and this really big furry thing.

I do have tunics and a pair of furry pants, and my partner has a lab coat. Just saying.
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Varthonai



Joined: 19 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*buggy forum

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Varthonai



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*buggy forum

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Varthonai



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
1. I'd click that link to drowmemos' profile, and click the read all posts by author button before frothing about how "other people think so too" That dude's a troll.


Honestly I hadn't even noticed Drowemos' solitary post in this thread before you mentioned em. The other two people I was talking about were Sassafras and Moor. Though of course you suggested Sassafras was a troll too.

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Cross dressing is not the same as transgender. You really need to get that straight first off because it's a wildly different thing. They bear some similarity to how society reacts to you, but one is something people do, the other is something people are. The difference is that motivation matters regarding things you do. In the case of this comic, the motivation is to spy in a space they aren't welcome in.


Urg yes I understand this! For the zillionth time, my point is that motivation is privileged audience knowledge, and my objection is to the implication that such a motivation can be easily discerned from a subject's appearance, speech, and behavior, and used as justification to blatantly ignore the subject's professed gender identity and then kill the subject.

These are the things I think we can all agree are discernible from this strip regardless of context:

a) The Sisterhood feels justified, under certain circumstances, in turning away individuals who profess a female identity (not merely cross-dressing, mind you, but actually claiming to be female!) from the WOS
b) This logically necessitates members of the Sisterhood possessing a definition of "real woman" (as opposed to "ringer") which they do not necessarily extend to all beings who identify themselves as female
c) The Sisterhood feels justified, under those same circumstances, in destroying said individuals
d) with chainsaws

Even if you took TERF out of the picture entirely and no analogous group IRL actually existed, these points alone would surely make a lot of transwomen in the SinFest universe feel that the WOS is not a safe space for them because registering as a "ringer" can literally get you killed with a chainsaw and this is an unsettling thought even if we take the most generous and inclusive interpretation, i.e. that the definition of "ringer" includes "must be at least vaguely spydrone-like in physical appearance".

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Read the other definitions, i'm particularly partial to 2, 3, and 6. They fit what you've done here pretty firmly.


"pretty firmly"? "particularly partial"? You sound like you're hedging now, could this be the cusp of another backhanded withdrawal of a bullshit trolling accusation?

But sorry, no, it still doesn't fit any of those "pretty firmly", honestly it best fits 4. 6 alone fits what you keep claiming I've done, but the fact is I have explicitly stated multiple times that I do not think Tat is a TERF and that I object to the content of this strip regardless of what motivated it because I find the content inherently problematic. I have not done any sort of weaselly "I'm not saying he's a TERF, but man, look at all these things that vaguely hint he might be" as you have suggested; I actually came right out from the start and said straight up that I think he isn't a TERF. There was never anything backhanded in my posts, I read the strip as unintentionally transphobic and I called it like I saw it, without hedging. I've basically had my heart on my sleeve this whole time so I guess I should have been prepared for you to stab it.

Friggin' A, and you accused me of willful misinterpretation.

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Fucking clownshoes, and your solution is for them to just suck it up and have their space invaded by drones controlled by someone who has tried to kill them in the past. FFS.


FFS, it's not an invasion if they are permitted inside conditionally you insufferable intimidation-silencing-tactics-loving douchenozzle. My solution is far from perfect but it doesn't meaningfully sacrifice security in the WOS like you're implying so I object to the idea that it is any worse than policies that encourage the murder of innocents who fail to pass the Sisterhood's standard of "real woman".

Ennis wrote:
Also whether or not crossdressing or drag fall under the transgender umbrella is a contentious one. "Cis" AKA not trans simply means "identifies with the gender one was assigned at birth". So a male-assigned crossdresser who still identifies as a man while wearing a dress shouldn't fall under the umbrella of trans by that definition. No one is going to argue that a cis man in a dress isn't a man (not seriously anyway, sort of like how cis people aren't actually degendered with "not a real man/woman") but ho boy will people argue with trans people about their identities no matter what they're wearing, especially if it doesn't conform to narrow gender stereotypes. And with trans women, if they DO wear stereotypically girly stuff they're also shamed for it.

TLDR: gender binary is bullshit, sex binary is wrong, society will shit on trans people and especially women at every opportunity and I don't trust scientists who are also a product of society to not let their research be swayed by ingrained beliefs about gender.


hear, hear

stripeypants wrote:
I am also a trans person raised in a transphobic society who finds plenty of transphobia everywhere. I don't find this strip transphobic, and you haven't convinced me otherwise. What you are talking about appears to be entirely based on an assumptive mold you're fitting this storyline into. I can see how it could easily be made transphobic with some tweaking, but as it stands I don't think it fits.


Ok, well… likewise, I guess. I do appreciate you entertaining my feelings seriously enough to have a discussion though, especially since some folks in this thread seem to have been educated or encouraged to self-educate on some important trans issues by it, so thank you.

mouse wrote:
i think what you are missing here is that these are real drones, and cannot be mistaken for humans of any gender. the same real drones who have a history of actually shooting at xanthe and others. i suspect if they came in wearing ears and tails and pretending to be puppy dogs they would get the same reaction (including the 'ringers' comment) because they are still, clearly, drones, who spy on people and shoot at them, at the command of the devil.

in other words, i am just adding my voice to all the people who are saying that you are taking this way, way out of context, and sort of ginning up something to complain about.


Being human isn't a prereq for having a gender identity in the SinFest universe, as evidenced by devilpeople. And I have issues with the notion of Always Chaotic Evil races or categories of beings.

If you folks think I'm being oversensitive I can deal with that but I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining. This strip really bothers me and the implication that you think I'm insincere hurts a lot more than the implication that you just think I'm silly.

mouse wrote:
that said, monkey has a point. if you really feel this is offensive to trans* people, email tat. nothing in the history of the cartoon suggests he is particularly familiar with trans* people; if you have some personal knowledge of the area, offer it to him.


I might do. I don't think lack of familiarity is an excuse.

stripeypants wrote:
I think the focus needs to be more on how everyone has gender, instead of, "These people are doing this very interesting weird thing over here." Because that's just one part of it, and no need to put one group under glass, far and away from everyone else.

Also, I'd love for there to be some kind of study other than just about transition or who has sex with trans people. Personally useful studies to me would be, "Does taking testosterone without having a hysterectomy increase the likelihood of cancer?" or "Should a trans person follow the weight guidelines of the gender they identify with when they are taking HRT?" And when gendered studies are conducted, like "Are women naturally bad at math?", I would like trans people to be included.

I occasionally get to take trans-related surveys from sciencey people, and it's always, "Who do you have sex with? Do they like having sex with you? Do they have sex with other trans people? How about women? How about men? Do the people you are having sex with consider themselves gay? Do they hate themselves? Do they do drugs?" Besides being annoying, these surveys get old after awhile, especially because they are never about things I care about.


hear, hear for this too

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Literally all you guys have to do is introduce a logical chain of conclusions from seeing what is presented to coming to the conclusion that this is some TERF message.


That would be pretty counterintuitive since, again, that's not what was being argued. : /

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
If you, or varthonai had provided any sort of historical backup to the idea that Tat would be peddling trans exclusionary feminism when Heretical rants asked for it that would be at least the starting point for a discussion about it. Y'all didn't because you can't, because he really hasn't touched on it.


When did Heretical Rants ask for that? IIRC HR supplied it.

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
If you REALLY REALLY want to make the claim, and have the best chance of forum goers not mocking or raging at you, theres a 200 page thread in the general forum here. Just be forewarned that the people in that forum are less likely to take the short route of swearing at you if you can't back your shit up, and more likely to bludgeon you to death with various sources and links proving you wrong. Pick your poison.


Well I may give it a shot since I am looking to learn, bonus points if I get to see less of you in there. My pride is not easily wounded by being legitimately proved wrong, and even if it was, academia wouldn't hurt me the way bullying does.

It's not going to stop me from posting in the actual strip threads if I see something that bothers me, though. I get anxious when that happens, these specific discussions give me a lot of relief from that anxiety, and since you've not shown me the slightest amount of kindness I see no reason why I should stop just for your sake unless your health literally depends on it.

stripeypants wrote:
Seriously, though, I drop shows and stories and all kinds of things when transphobia shows up. It hurts me in a not symbolic way. It hurts the people I spend the majority of my time with. I have a keen interest in recognizing it and getting it out of my life. That also means I have great interest in avoiding false flags. So unless you show me some good evidence, I have to go with all the knowledge I have accrued up to this point.


Well, I can't deny you've had more experience than me so I won't persist trying to persuade. I felt hurt by this strip, I said my piece, and now I guess I'm done. My respect for your choices and insights in any case.

stripeypants wrote:
A similar situation showed up for me recently about the Rocky Horror Picture Show. My roommate was complaining that it was transphobic. I told him that it was made by a trans person, and my roommate said that person must have been full of self-loathing. Since I had talked at length with another trans friend of mine who was all out and stuff in the queer community when the musical was going around and the film came out, I had some background knowledge on what Rocky Horror meant for trans people of the time, and what it meant for queer people in general.

My roommate wasn't interested in the historical perspective, or the reasons why things that are problematic to him are not a problem for other trans people. If I were not trans and I didn't know anything about the show or trans history, I would have gone with my roommate's idea until I heard something different that made sense to me.

I didn't avoid changing my opinion about Rocky Horror out of some attachment to it - because personally the story doesn't mean much to me, and because at least for awhile the local showing of it insisted everyone use the 'proper' restroom for their gender (Who the fuck does that, seriously?). The reason my opinion remained the same is that there was no evidence that warranted it changing.


This is a good point. Rocky Horror didn't strike me as transphobic, and even though thinking about it I can see lots of reasons why it should have, I'm inclined to agree with you. Maybe it didn't feel transphobic because it never took itself very seriously and no character ever really felt condemned?

What were your roommates' issues, if you don't mind me asking? I'm guessing an ambiguously-gendered transvestite like Dr. FnF being deranged and ostensibly the villain of the story was one; were there others?
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My health doesn't depend on anything with this forum. I'm still convinced you're a concern troll who can't back their claims up. I still think you're probably the worst newbie this forum has seen since the last invasion of shitlords who feel like whining on a forum about content they dislike is the means to change it.



Incidentally

Quote:
FFS, it's not an invasion if they are permitted inside conditionally you insufferable intimidation-silencing-tactics-loving douchenozzle. My solution is far from perfect but it doesn't meaningfully sacrifice security in the WOS like you're implying so I object to the idea that it is any worse than policies that encourage the murder of innocents who fail to pass the Sisterhood's standard of "real woman".


There you go again, being a waste of space. Who let them in? What is a safe space that you have to watch what you do because you're being spied upon? How is having to behave in a certain fashion because you know hostile eyes are on you NOT a sacrifice of security? If this is how you form arguments you'll have better luck playing blindfolded in traffic than you will here.
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this isn't an issue of the sisterhood having a standard of what a "REAL WOMAN" is or is not, but rather an issue of having what they KNOW to be REMOTE-CONTROLLED SPYDRONES attempting to invade their space and to convince them to lower their guards.

theyre fucking remote-controlled toys

not only does the sisterhood know it, but everyone in sinfest city knows it too. and it doesnt take a genius to realize that those standard drones are not to be trusted under any circumstances. and it isnt hard for anyone who NEEDS the WOS to figure out that what the sisterhood does to those spydrones is not anything they'd ever do to an actual person. not when they usually stick around to ask if the victims are ok or alright, if they need any help, give them assurance, ect. regardless of whether or not they are a robot or devil girl, and regardless of whether or not they are a cis woman. everyone in sinfest city is harassed by these drones on the daily, and they have been long before the sisterhood made its reappearance. you cannot honestly fucking tell me that they aren't aware of the fact that they're remote-controlled toys.

there is no reason that a couple of girls who are continuously hunted down by what they KNOW FOR A FACT to be REMOTE-CONTROLLED TOYS, OPERATED BY THEIR ENEMY THE DEVIL, THAT HAVE FREQUENTLY MADE ATTEMPTS ON THEIR LIVES, would assume that any spydrones that literally do not look ANY different from their "lol we r here 2 kill u" selves would be genuinely trying to find a safe place. there is NO REASON why they should. you can make a case that about the enlightened drones but fuck that noise because they look COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from standard drones. they are fucking PINK AND BLUE WITH BUTTERFLY WINGS.

i'll repeat - i am sympathetic. it would be SO easy for tat to make the sisterhood transphobic out of ignorance or naivety of the subject and his unfamiliarity of trans* issues and i will certainly agree to that. but you are currently pulling straws out of your ass, making claims and assumptions that have no support in the context of the strip or the context of the comic. and instead of giving reasonable arguments, you seem to be repeating the same assumptions over and over which is obviously not very credible. not when theyve been debunked already.
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One would think the devil would employ less conspicuous spies. He certainly has the resources.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I do have tunics and a pair of furry pants, and my partner has a lab coat. Just saying.


STOP IT STOP IT JESUS I already have an embarrassing platonic crush on you dude stooooop. I cannot handle the cute and now you added in ~Nightvale cute~ there is no hope for me.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
I do have tunics and a pair of furry pants, and my partner has a lab coat. Just saying.


STOP IT STOP IT JESUS I already have an embarrassing platonic crush on you dude stooooop. I cannot handle the cute and now you added in ~Nightvale cute~ there is no hope for me.


Well you'll just have to deal because sometime in the future I'll be posting a picture of me in my wizard robe and hat (once the forum is less buggy.)
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't get too into what his objections were. In that case, I decided to just let it go, because my hierarchy goes like this:

If no minority members present, use best knowledge and represent.
If minority member present, listen and support, and let them have the benefit of the doubt except in certain circumstances (IE: Person is too young to understand what is really happening, and contradicting what other people more well versed in the problems have said.)
If more than one minority member is present and they disagree, listen and don't take sides; this is their fight and your voice isn't necessarily needed.
If I am a member of that minority and another member of that minority disagrees with me, I try to make sure we both understand explicitly who is saying what, exchange views, and leave it at that. It's not always placid.

I thought you said you were trans. You aren't?

Quote:
Even if you took TERF out of the picture entirely and no analogous group IRL actually existed, these points alone would surely make a lot of transwomen in the SinFest universe feel that the WOS is not a safe space for them because registering as a "ringer" can literally get you killed with a chainsaw and this is an unsettling thought even if we take the most generous and inclusive interpretation, i.e. that the definition of "ringer" includes "must be at least vaguely spydrone-like in physical appearance".


What if the sisterhood is actually pretty awesome and welcoming to the trans women of Sinfest? What if these trans women are also being targeted by violent spybots? Seeing as the patriarchy demands gender norms be enforced, trans women are going to get the horrible end of things here, aren't they?

In the pit of the misogyny cult, there was a queer woman. The other women in that pit belonged to groups of women who are transgressing the Devil's social norms. Do you think perhaps there might be some trans women imprisoned there? How about trans men?

There is no reason that the Sisterhood can't be anti-Spybots From Hell and pro trans people. They offer support to devil people, at least in the form of cupcakes. There is evidence that Sinfest society looks down on and hates Devil people and doesn't think of them as people. Devil girls seem to be all sex workers in some capacity. There are lots of feminists who hate sex workers, but the Sisterhood appear to be supportive. Granted they appear to want to draw the Devil Girls away from their work, but in this specific story the devil girls belong to a horrific corporation run by an overbearing demonic overlord (who likes My Little Pony.). Within the framework of Sinfest, trying to empower devil girls to leave makes sense, both as a way to help specific women and to attack the patriarchy at its source. I mean, if Fuschia left, then maybe someone else could leave. And then maybe Fuschia and that person can help the next person to come along, and so on.


I recall someone on this board awhile ago who started a thread talking about how much Fuschia meant to her, because as a trans woman she identified strongly with Fuschia's struggles. I wonder how other trans women might feel about this character, and about the devil people in general.

I wonder a lot of things, especially when stuck on a bus for 5 hours.
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No idea if the werecoyotes eat cats, but keeping your kitties inside is good regardless.

Quote:
if the werecoyotes eat cats

Quote:
werecoyotes eat cats


Jeeves, my friend, would you be so kind as to fetch my Enfield and my blanket? Thank you, that's a good man.

Quote:
wizard robe and hat
tunics and a pair of furry pants


Ooh! And I have a pirate coat with 30 shiny metal buttons and gigantic sleeve cuffs!
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like the question hinges on what the members of the Sisterhood know or could have known about the drones. Varthonai's argument (to the best of my recollection) is that they could not have known the drones were not trans, and were thus making assumptions about them based on their appearance (I don't know if you would call it "passing/not passing" in this case, though*). There are two counterarguments that I see: 1) that the Sisterhood could have known through some process that the drones were ringers, and 2) that we cannot know whether the Sisterhood knew or not, and that any speculation either way is completely without merit. Now see asterisk.


* Drones have never been shown to wear clothes or alter their appearance that I can recall (zen zap not withstanding). It seems like we're making the assumption that drones that identify differently will also look different, even though the only drones we've seen that look different were made that way by Buddha (all other drones look identical, at least to us). On what are we basing the assumption that drones of any type have gender, have sexuality, and that drones with different identities look different from any other? If all drones look the same (and express their identity, if they identify, through something other than appearance) then putting on eyelashes would be a glaring change that is inconsistent with how drones differentiate, and thus cluing in the Sisterhood that the appearance was done to fool them.

Basically, we have to assume that the Sisterhood could not know the drones were not trans, and in order to do that we have to first assume that drones change their appearance when they identify as one gender or the other, and in order to do that we have to assume drones have gender or sexuality. Then you'd have to be able to show evidence of those three propositions...
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
Quote:
No idea if the werecoyotes eat cats, but keeping your kitties inside is good regardless.

Quote:
if the werecoyotes eat cats

Quote:
werecoyotes eat cats


Jeeves, my friend, would you be so kind as to fetch my Enfield and my blanket? Thank you, that's a good man.

Quote:
wizard robe and hat
tunics and a pair of furry pants


Ooh! And I have a pirate coat with 30 shiny metal buttons and gigantic sleeve cuffs!


Neat!* I used to have a pirate coat, but gave it to a friend who runs this really cool camp where kids get to go questing. It hardly had any buttons, though, and was made of corduroy. I attempted to make frock coats off and on over the years, but omg no. I don't get along with frock coat patterns. I got close with a cassock, but the sleeves were way too small.

*That's for you, Samsally. Very Happy
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I burned all of my clothes, so I don't have anything like any of those things.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you perchance a werepony who is now running free in the meadows?
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