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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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lostinube



Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More about the Dr. V story:
http://deadspin.com/how-grantland-screwed-up-the-story-of-essay-anne-vander-1505368906

http://the-toast.net/2014/01/18/responses-to-grantlands-trans-outing/

http://www.shakesville.com/2014/01/careless-cruel-and-unaccountable.html

This metafilter thread comment http://www.metafilter.com/135735/Dr-Vs-Magical-Putter#5382643 puts into words some of the things I felt about the kind of, sort of apology that Simmons gave. It just didn't sit well with me.

One of the things that another comment brought up is that they had someone right they could have asked - Christina Kahrl works for ESPN.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1184
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lostinube wrote:
More about the Dr. V story:
http://deadspin.com/how-grantland-screwed-up-the-story-of-essay-anne-vander-1505368906

http://the-toast.net/2014/01/18/responses-to-grantlands-trans-outing/

http://www.shakesville.com/2014/01/careless-cruel-and-unaccountable.html

This metafilter thread comment http://www.metafilter.com/135735/Dr-Vs-Magical-Putter#5382643 puts into words some of the things I felt about the kind of, sort of apology that Simmons gave. It just didn't sit well with me.

One of the things that another comment brought up is that they had someone right they could have asked - Christina Kahrl works for ESPN.


I feel that it should be pointed out that there isn't actually any evidence that Vanderbilt's suicide was the result of the possibility of being outed as transgender. It could also have been due to the fact that she was also going to be outed as a fraudster. It's a tragedy either way, but all the people who seem to be posting that they "know" it was because she was trans are conjecturing on something that may not ever be proven.

And now, I'm going to specifically address that Metafilter post you linked:

Metafilter wrote:
Simmon's Apology wrote:
Seeing so many people direct their outrage at one of our writers, and not our website as a whole, was profoundly upsetting for us.

Don't worry, I think all of you fucked up horribly. But Caleb fucked up horribly the most.

Actually, he didn't. He fucked up, but not as bad as the editors did. They greenlighted the story. They told him to keep reporting. At any moment, they could have pulled the plug, and they didn't. Hannan was doing his job. The editors thought the story was great. They were wrong. But reporters don't answer to the public, they answer to their editors. If 13-15 people read it, from copy editors on up to ESPN's own editor-in-chief, and everyone was "blown away", that points to a problem further up the chain.

Metafilter wrote:
Simmon's Apology wrote:
There was no hounding. There was no badgering. It just didnít happen that way.

This is one side of the story, which you're reporting as "fact." We'll never hear Dr. V's perspective, because she's fucking dead, but I imagine she'd disagree with you. A lot of other people disagree with you, too - many of us because we're trans and we know exactly how we'd feel if a reporter wanted to confirm that we were "born a boy" for a story about a goddamned golf club. You do not decide what's hounding or badgering. Dr. V did. Some of the rest of us can, to an extent. A straight cis person depending on his own straight cis gut and nothing else? Get the fuck out.
Well, to begin with, the story stopped being about the golf club when they found out that all of Vanderbilt's credentials appeared to be faked. She bragged about helping invent Bluetooth technology and worked on the fucking stealth aircraft project to her own investors. That's when this went from being a story about a golf club to a golf-related article on fraud. And honestly, if you are committing fraud like that and you previously went by a different name, it shouldn't be a giant surprise that the reporter currently investigating your possible fraudulent business claims would ask you about the time when you went by said previous name (in this case, prior to her being legally trans). Also, once again, the argument that cis/straight people are unable to understand what it means to be hounded or badgered.

Metafilter wrote:
They should never run another story from Caleb Hannan and they should do it without whining making things harder for a promising writer.
As I said previously, there's a good chance that Hannan would be one of the less culpable people in this situation. His bosses repeatedly told him to go ahead and gave it the final yes to go public. That doesn't mean Hannan should get off scot-free, but there are editors at Grantland who should probably face the repercussions before he does.

In the end, the Grantland article was dumb, but at the same time there's a lot of conclusion-jumping going on here on both sides of the argument and it seems like it's stifling any chances at actual progress. I'd bet that after this fiasco Grantland and ESPN aren't going to be touching LGBT issues with a 10 foot pole for fear of provoking another shitstorm.

This post may or may not be revised in the next 24 hours, as I haven't slept in over 48 hours currently.
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Last edited by fritterdonut on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tekii



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 194

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
I'm not quite sure why your sexuality would make death threats more or less threatening.


Really? You can't find any possible reasons why death threats to a person who is trans or whose sexuality is something other than straight isn't more or less threatening?

Maybe you should have slept before posting.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10427
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tekii wrote:
fritterdonut wrote:
I'm not quite sure why your sexuality would make death threats more or less threatening.


Really? You can't find any possible reasons why death threats to a person who is trans or whose sexuality is something other than straight isn't more or less threatening?

Maybe you should have slept before posting.

Whenever you're part of a group or sub-pupolation that has a history of suffering disproportional amounts of violence when compared to the rest of the population of as a whole, and when being part of that same said group or sub-pupolation is the reason for receiving death threats, it's kind of hard to see how it's not more threatening, although you did say you needed sleep, so yeah, go rest up.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1184
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Tekii wrote:
fritterdonut wrote:
I'm not quite sure why your sexuality would make death threats more or less threatening.


Really? You can't find any possible reasons why death threats to a person who is trans or whose sexuality is something other than straight isn't more or less threatening?

Maybe you should have slept before posting.

Whenever you're part of a group or sub-pupolation that has a history of suffering disproportional amounts of violence when compared to the rest of the population of as a whole, and when being part of that same said group or sub-pupolation is the reason for receiving death threats, it's kind of hard to see how it's not more threatening, although you did say you needed sleep, so yeah, go rest up.


Still haven't slept, but I'm back with a vengeance.

I probably should have thought through my post a bit more, but what I was trying to say was that I took issue with the way the poster seemed to imply that because Hannan is cis/straight, he should just suck it up and deal with it, and also the idea that LGBT are always forced into 'dark places' by death threats, doxxing, etc. Lots of well known LGBT activists have received death threats because of their activism, and a lot of them have come forward about it, and said "this is wrong, this needs to stop". That's not to say that all LGBT people do that, but not all of them live in fear, either. Also, I was kind of assuming that everyone took death threats seriously, regardless of why such threats are received (be it for sexuality, race, political beliefs, etc). Personally, having family who have had traumatic experiences with stalking, I've always taken death threats, even anonymous online ones, really seriously. Maybe thats just me.

Anyways, the offending paragraph is being removed from my previous post, I'll try to articulate it better tomorrow maybe.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This guy's reporting was apalling, no matter if it caused this person's death. The proper etiquette is:

1: Don't out anyone
- Up for debate: Outing trans and other LGBT people who are actively causing harm to
others in the community.
- Not up for debate: Outing criminals and other unsavoury people. Because LGBT status doesn't suddenly become okay to disclose just because you're mad at someone else
2: Use the names and gender markers that trans people give you as if those are real - because they really are that person's name and gender marker.
3: When writing an article involving a trans person, only write about their transness as much as it relates to the focus of the article. Assume that your article doesn't have to be the jumping off educational point for every cisgender person - there needs to be more than just 101 classes.
4: If you are writing about someone who is duplicitous and you focus on that person being trans, you are helping to continue the link between duplicity and trans people. That kills trans people, and also prevents laws from being passed that protect trans people from discrimination and harassment. That makes you an asshole.
5: If you are a modern reporter, you can use the google. That means no excuses in not knowing anything about trans people when you sit down to write about them. Do at least a half-assed search before you shit out a worthless article that has been done before.
6: Do not make the article about your reaction to trans people. You are doing no one any favors if all you are doing is spreading your uninformed, ignorant ass opinions which you posted without doing any research.


LGBT people who are afraid of being outed don't come forward. This is because there is a deeply compelling reason for them to stay stealth or in the closet.

If you are surprised by the reactions trans people and supporters are having to this guy, I doubt you keep tabs on trans related news. I'm guessing you are not aware of the infuriating way that articles are often written about trans people who are murdered because of transphobia.

The dance goes like this:

"Soandso, he was a transwoman. Suchandsuch killed him because he was gay. The police aren't looking into it.

And now let's talk about Soandso's penis. Soandso had THE SURGERY(tm). THE SURGERY(tm) is fascinating and creepy. Remember Silence of the Lambs? That guy was a transwoman, and he killed real(tm) women for their skin. We remind you once again that Soandso was a man who wanted to become a woman(tm).

Suchandsuch is bravely enduring, and we are confident he will move on from this incident to become a stronger person."


This is compounded by the lack of representation for trans people. It is perfectly normal for a panel or segment of a news show about trans people to include a bunch of straight cis people and Dan Savage, noted LGBT person who is transphobic and racist. Unfortunately, the cisgender news teams never bothered to find that out.

When trans people themselves have been included in news shows in the past, it is always to be questioned thusly:

1. Tell us about THE SURGERY(tm)
2. What's it like to be trans?
3. Don't you wish you were NORMAL?
4. Have you tried being normal?
5. (Silly tension breaking remark about gender stereotypes)
6. (Serious stare) You are soooooo brave.

And somehow the interview never gets around to anything else. Which would be fine if such segments were an occasional thing. But that is how most interviews with trans people go in anything except media produced for trans people. (Although I am happy to note that Melissa Harris Perry is a wonderful person who is really changing things. OMG I love her trans-related coverage)


Trans people have been complaining to the press about this and to each other for a long time. Newspapers have tended not to listen. Complaints and educational tidbits just haven't registered. Now the messages are getting through, and a lot more people are listening. So naturally you'll hear more complaining now than you would have before.

In conclusion, there are reasons trans people are complaining. If you're going to refute that, try to do it in a way that doesn't minimize the problems trans people face or imply trans people are whiners who need to really think of the other guy.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1184
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ehhhhh I think I'm going to walk away from this one.

Pick your battles and whatnot...
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jwing



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2132

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants, you have earned One Internet Hug from me. Very well written.

Have you seen Couric's recent offensive interview of Ms Carmen Carrera and Ms Laverne Cox and the elegant way they handled it? It's here.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't watch it, but I've read all about it. I'm glad there were two of them on there so they could back each other up. Couric's defense of the questioning has been stupid.

I think Couric ought to, in the interest of fairness, tell her audience about her genitals. It'd be a 'teachable moment,' and naturally nothing she could say as a serious news anchor could compare to the educational service she'd do for men uneducated about cisgender women's bodies if she would just put herself on display like that.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't heard about it, but damn they were good. I loved it when she literally shushed Couric.

It's amazing to me how people - including me - have difficulty generalizing their experience to others. You'd think that as a woman on TV Couric would understand objectification and the negative effects of focusing on a person's body instead of that person... but apparently not.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lostinube wrote:


This metafilter thread comment http://www.metafilter.com/135735/Dr-Vs-Magical-Putter#5382643 puts into words some of the things I felt about the kind of, sort of apology that Simmons gave. It just didn't sit well with me.

That comment is stupid because it keeps on yelling at Simmons for not being aware of shit he just explained he wasn't aware off.

You can only blame people for being ignorant to some extent unless they are wilfully ignorant. And the thing about being simply ignorant is that you do not know you are ignorant. Part of the explanation is that it literally didn't even cross their minds that outing someone was problematic. They didn't go "Is this wrong? nah probably not". They simply didn't even realize that such a question needed to be asked in the first place.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This wasn't something the writer said on the fly in a moment of fleeting social interaction. This was an article whose research took time - Time in which this writer could have googled information about trans people. He doesn't live in a tiny bubble without internet access. Neither do those supervising him

He did something wrong and the internet is calling him out for it. His apology has been inadequate, so people are still angry. If I recall, though, you think trans people shouldn't complain about ignorance because no reasonable cis person can be expected to know anything regarding those who are not trans.
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Feiticeira



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
He did something wrong and the internet is calling him out for it. His apology has been inadequate...


What was lacking in his apology? What would have satisfied you?
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lostinube



Joined: 08 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the author himself (as far as I can tell) has not made a statement. The editor-in-chief of Grantland, Bill Simmons, gave an explanation and apology.

I'm sorry I linked to the metafilter comment as it seems to have angered some people but at the time there was nothing else up that I saw addressing it and it did cover some of the things I felt about the Simmons explanation.

This is a more measured take on what Bill Simmons wrote: http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2014/01/20/3184091/simmons-grantland-hannan/
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://chrispriestman.wordpress.com/2014/01/22/ive-left-indie-statik/
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