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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good god - i hadn't heard anything about it. and i get my news from NPR!

- ok, just read what the NYTimes had, but it's all about the protests, and nothing about what the protests are all about (except that they oppose the president, and apparently the u.s. supports the protesters).

so what all has the president of ukraine been up to?
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Echo



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What seemed to trigger these protests/riots was a series of discussions about Ukraine joining the EU, or at least taking the first steps to do this, from which President Yanukovych pulled out - and instead made a *very* fast deal with Russia, trading political influence for cheap loans and subidised gas. Then he passed some pretty draconian anti-protest laws to try and stifle the dissent.

The protesters want to join the EU, and stay well away from the fairly repressive, corrupt Russian government. The Ukrainian government, on the other hand, was elected by a big chunk of the population who identify strongly with Russia, I think even to the point of speaking Russian. So there's quite a big difference of opinion, and little sign of many people in power looking for a compromise.

That's my distant view of the situation, though; the BBC have a bit more detail on the latest stuff, like protesters in Lviv forcing the regional governor to resign (which he later retracted, claiming that he was under duress) in their article here
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i can certainly sympathize with wanting to stay away from the russian government. ukraine was of course part of the ussr, which would explain at least the speaking russian bit - although former members of the ussr seem to have sharply divided opinions on how much they care to stay connected to Mother Russia.

thanks!
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a lot of stuff that the Soviets did to the Ukrainians, like what happened to the kobzari:

wiki on Kobzars wrote:
Kobzars were often blind and became predominantly so by the 1800s. Kobzar literally means ‘kobza player’, a Ukrainian stringed instrument of the lute family, and more broadly — a performer of the musical material associated with the kobzar tradition.[1][2]

The professional kobzar tradition was established during the Hetmanate Era around the sixteenth century in Ukraine. Kobzars accompanied their singing with a musical instrument known as the kobza, bandura or lira. Their repertoire primarily consisted of para-liturgical psalms and "kanty", and also included a unique epic form known as dumas.

At the turn of the nineteenth century there were three regional kobzar schools: Chernihiv, Poltava, and Slobozhan, which were differentiated by repertoire and playing style.

. . .

The institution of the kobzardom essentially ended in the Ukrainian SSR in the mid 1930s during Stalin's radical transformation of rural society which included the liquidation of the kobzars of Ukraine.[3] Kobzar performance was replaced with stylized performances of folk and classical music utilising the bandura.

Which Stalin tried to replace with fakes:
wiki on Soviet Kobzars wrote:
Soviet kobzars were stylised performers on the bandura created to replace the traditional authentic kobzari who had been wiped out in the 1930s. These performers were often blind and although some actually had contact with the authentic kobzari of the previous generation, many received formal training in the Folk conservatories by trained musicians and played on contemporary chromatic concert factory made instruments.

Their repertoire was primarily made up of censored versions of traditional kobzar repertoire and focused on stylized works that praised the Soviet system and Soviet heroes. Most of this music lost its traditional folk characteristics such as modal tunings, traditional folk melodic embellishments, playing style etc.



And that's just one item on a laundry list of things they did to the Ukrainians. My one Ukrainian friend Alex, he's a pretty calm guy, but I've seen him flip shit when people ask if he's Russian. and he's only in his twenties, although he lived there until he was 17. I think having Putin at the helm enacting his heavy handed policies has only made things worse.
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Him



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Ukrainian president is certainly corrupt...but you should be aware that Svoboda has a major presence on the demonstrations before you start cheering.

You can see their flags here:


and here



and here



Oh and that black and red flag...it's these guys.

It's weird to see nazis demonstrate for EU, but the real issue is a sort pro-europeanism/anti-russian issue. And that's certainly not to defend the present Putin aligned government, but we should be worried when nazis target an ethnic minority, in this case the russian minority. Certainly though not everyone out protesting against the regime are nazis, but the fact that they have such a presence and power within the movement is worrying.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh and that black and red flag...it's these guys.

It's weird to see nazis demonstrate for EU, but the real issue is a sort pro-europeanism/anti-russian issue. And that's certainly not to defend the present Putin aligned government, but we should be worried when nazis target an ethnic minority, in this case the russian minority. Certainly though not everyone out protesting against the regime are nazis, but the fact that they have such a presence and power within the movement is worrying.


10 flags in a crowd of hundreds != hundreds of supporters of said flag.

Besides, the Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists has a paltry 1.11% of the vote and Svoboda kicked out the radical neo-nazis and fascists a decade ago. Nowadays, Svoboda is probably on par with the Russian government, as far as right-wing nationalism goes.

Yanukovych is a tyrant and a dickpuppet for Putin, and his quick attempt to pass anti-protest laws shows he has utter contempt for the people of Ukraine. He needs to go.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Putin had a US-style PAC I imagine it would be called "Dickpuppets for Putin."
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, it should be taken into account that in Kiev is a hotspot for Svoboda. They got 17% of the vote there, which is higher than the surrounding country to the north, south and west. So of course Svoboda supporters will be overrepresented in a protest in Kiev, only eastern Ukraine has higher support percentages (due to eastern Ukraine mainly speaking Ukrainian and mostly being ethnic Ukrainians).
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Him



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Quote:
Oh and that black and red flag...it's these guys.

It's weird to see nazis demonstrate for EU, but the real issue is a sort pro-europeanism/anti-russian issue. And that's certainly not to defend the present Putin aligned government, but we should be worried when nazis target an ethnic minority, in this case the russian minority. Certainly though not everyone out protesting against the regime are nazis, but the fact that they have such a presence and power within the movement is worrying.


10 flags in a crowd of hundreds != hundreds of supporters of said flag.

Besides, the Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists has a paltry 1.11% of the vote and Svoboda kicked out the radical neo-nazis and fascists a decade ago. Nowadays, Svoboda is probably on par with the Russian government, as far as right-wing nationalism goes.

Yanukovych is a tyrant and a dickpuppet for Putin, and his quick attempt to pass anti-protest laws shows he has utter contempt for the people of Ukraine. He needs to go.
Yeah, just the top results for "protests in Ukraine". I figured I should be fair and not specifically search for Svoboda. they got 10.45% in the last election and form an opposition bloc with other rightwing nationalist parties. And if you think they're no longer nazis you haven't been paying attention, they've merely shifted tactics not content. Their present leader still makes virulent anti-semitic and anti-russian (as in the ethnic minority in Ukraine) statements, statements that no doubt has some support. Let me be clear, Putin is scum, so is Yanukovich. The protests are not manufactured but borne out of real disgust with the regime.

But that doesn't change the reality of weight Svoboda is having in these protests:


Again, the familiar flags.

My enemy's enemy is not my friend. This is how fascism functions, it latches on to protests like a parasite and if people remain complacent about that sadly we know where this will end. The present regime might fall but what comes after it might well be even worse. This is not to say I don't think the regime should be overthrown, but unless the fascists are rooted out this well end very very badly.

I could take any number of examples, but consider Iran, for instance. When they reaction, while claiming to be "good democrats", took hold of the revolution...well I think you know what happened. And Iran therevwere actually alternative forces that had a pretty significant power as well, but they never challenged the islamists fully and they paid for it in blood and in the regime that ascended.


Or why not an even more closely related example, Georgia.

If you want to attempt to paint me as holding a pro-putin position well...I'm not. Nor am I fan of regimes under Putin's influence outside of Russia.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Yeah, just the top results for "protests in Ukraine".

I just Google/Image searched protests in Ukraine. I see one picture of Svoboda leaders, 2 pictures in which there are visible Svoboda flags or signs, and 2 images where a Svoboda flag is visible, but is with other non-partisan flags or in the background. That's a total of 5 images in the top 26, with the other 21 not having a clear Svoboda influence, either being protest action, standard Ukrainian flags, pictures of injured protesters, or clashes with riot police.
The picture of my Google result is available here.
Him wrote:
And if you think they're no longer nazis you haven't been paying attention, they've merely shifted tactics not content. Their present leader still makes virulent anti-semitic and anti-russian (as in the ethnic minority in Ukraine) statements, statements that no doubt has some support. Let me be clear, Putin is scum, so is Yanukovich.

I'm not saying they are good people (they are right wing Nationalists, after all), but they hold a minority opinion. Besides, any extremism from Svoboda would be tempered out by the other parties that made up the Our Ukraine bloc that Svoboda relies on, and that Yushchenko (The OG revolutionary politician of the Ukraine) belonged to (and intends to run again in 2015). Chances are, if there is an election, the head of state will be Vitali Klitschko, a much more moderate and relatively new politician who is the current head of the Opposition.
Him wrote:
But that doesn't change the reality of weight Svoboda is having in these protests:

Again, the familiar flags.

This is just dishonest, but that isn't actually your fault, it's Land Destroyer's fault for being shitty and using generic images. This image isn't related to the current rioting, but is actually Activists of the Svoboda (Freedom) Ukrainian nationalist party take part in a rally marking the 71st anniversary of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), which fought both Nazi and Soviet forces in World War Two, and the feast of the Protecting Veil of the Mother of God in central Kiev, October 14, 2013. Pictures of a political rally specifically for this particular party 4 months prior do not fairly represent the current demographic of the protest currently occurring in the Ukraine.
Him wrote:
This is how fascism functions, it latches on to protests like a parasite and if people remain complacent about that sadly we know where this will end. The present regime might fall but what comes after it might well be even worse. This is not to say I don't think the regime should be overthrown, but unless the fascists are rooted out this well end very very badly.
One could say the same thing about Communism.
Him wrote:
I could take any number of examples, but consider Iran, for instance. When they reaction, while claiming to be "good democrats", took hold of the revolution...well I think you know what happened. And Iran therevwere actually alternative forces that had a pretty significant power as well, but they never challenged the islamists fully and they paid for it in blood and in the regime that ascended.
What? Ayatollah Khomeini was pretty much THE founding figure of the Iranian revolution, and from the beginning preached that law had to based on sharia law and that government had to be clerical. This, combined with denunciation of the Western-backed Shah, the Jews, and American influence. The original protests were by religious students who supported Khomeini. There was resistance to Khomeini's religious fundamentalism, and it was swiftly crushed. They didn't take hold. They started it, and they ended it. It's also worth noting that Khomeini took power immediately after the Shah left the country, which is probably not how the Ukrainian riots will end. The Ukrainian Opposition is calling for elections to end the riots, so the next parliament will most likely be elected in.
Him wrote:
Or why not an even more closely related example, Georgia.
This is a fairer example of what could happen in the Ukraine.
Him wrote:
If you want to attempt to paint me as holding a pro-putin position well...I'm not. Nor am I fan of regimes under Putin's influence outside of Russia.
I never said you were, nor did I try to.

In the news today, An uneasy truce has been formed between police and protesters while Klitschko is talking to Yanukovych. The ultimatum is pretty much the protesting and rioting will continue if Yanukovych does not agree to a snap election.

Also, Welcome to Fallout: Kiev
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Olympics are REALLY going to be interesting . . .
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
If Putin had a US-style PAC I imagine it would be called "Dickpuppets for Putin."


Putin On an Election
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/19/mathematics-of-happiness-debunked-nick-brown
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Him



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
I'm not saying they are good people (they are right wing Nationalists, after all), but they hold a minority opinion. Besides, any extremism from Svoboda would be tempered out by the other parties that made up the Our Ukraine bloc that Svoboda relies on, and that Yushchenko (The OG revolutionary politician of the Ukraine) belonged to (and intends to run again in 2015). Chances are, if there is an election, the head of state will be Vitali Klitschko, a much more moderate and relatively new politician who is the current head of the Opposition.

Yes, other right-wing nationalists are in alliance with Svoboda. If you think getting influence would weaken or make them more moderate, take a look at the growing strength of Jobbik in Hungary, acting as a support party for the right wing nationalist and populist Fidesz while simultaneously marching in the streets. For the record Jobbik too claims to "not be nazis".

As a matter of fact looking at the, microscopic in comparison, neo-nazi groups in Sweden only one presently self-identifies as "national socialists" (because nazi is pejorative heh). NSF (I am sure you can figure out what the acronym stands for) the biggest neo-nazi org changed their name to "the Swedes Party" and stopped wearing their uniforms to marches. They're still the exact same people, they just chose a different tactic. This is as true for the ex-NSF as it is for Jobbik and Svoboda.

And I am pretty sure Svoboda will come out stronger than they were out of this movement because of, not despite, their alliance with other right wing nationalists.

Quote:
This is just dishonest, but that isn't actually your fault, it's Land Destroyer's fault for being shitty and using generic images. This image isn't related to the current rioting, but is actually Activists of the Svoboda (Freedom) Ukrainian nationalist party take part in a rally marking the 71st anniversary of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), which fought both Nazi and Soviet forces in World War Two, and the feast of the Protecting Veil of the Mother of God in central Kiev, October 14, 2013. Pictures of a political rally specifically for this particular party 4 months prior do not fairly represent the current demographic of the protest currently occurring in the Ukraine.

Fair enough, but I think my general point still stands. I would be happy to be proven wrong about this so...has there been a resistance against the fascist influence on the protest movement? At all?

Quote:
One could say the same thing about Communism.

That's a non-answer if I ever saw one.

Quote:
What? Ayatollah Khomeini was pretty much THE founding figure of the Iranian revolution, and from the beginning preached that law had to based on sharia law and that government had to be clerical. This, combined with denunciation of the Western-backed Shah, the Jews, and American influence. The original protests were by religious students who supported Khomeini. There was resistance to Khomeini's religious fundamentalism, and it was swiftly crushed. They didn't take hold. They started it, and they ended it. It's also worth noting that Khomeini took power immediately after the Shah left the country, which is probably not how the Ukrainian riots will end. The Ukrainian Opposition is calling for elections to end the riots, so the next parliament will most likely be elected in.

I disagree about your analysis of the Iranian revolution by the way, for instance Khomeini did claim to favor some kind of parliamentary democracy, and the secular and left forces were significant in the revolution. Where they failed was in challenging Khomenei and realize just exactly what kind of threat he and his allies posed.

Elections which will favor the far right. There are many ways to take power and gain influence. Doing so through elections isn't exactly unheard of in fascist history. Again, take a look at Hungary.

Quite beyond Svoboda I don't see why you would have much faith in the rest of the opposition bloc.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree because I'm done arguing about this shit.

Suffice to say, if the outcome of this is Tyahnybok becoming president, I will eat my own hat.
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