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2/12/2014 - Harassholes
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2844
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silly Felgraf, continuity is for kids only!
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Estranged



Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Cool, images from another universe. I've been dying to visit this world where women rule the world but it turns out I can't afford the drugs for it.

Occupying the top goes hand in hand with occupying the bottom. Women tend to avoid working overtime (even if they are single), they can always leave their job because of pregnancy, they tend to choose safe jobs and avoid unnecessary risk. That's how you end up with men in construction work and in the mines and, of course, at the top positions.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estranged wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Cool, images from another universe. I've been dying to visit this world where women rule the world but it turns out I can't afford the drugs for it.

Occupying the top goes hand in hand with occupying the bottom.


So, the bottom rung in South African Apartheid were ALSO whites?

Do you even actually *read* what you write?
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redrose



Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While this has never happened to me this way (with construction guys), I can't say I haven't had a creep do this in the street. Specially when I was a minor, which made it even more disturbing for me. Confused
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Graybeard



Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:

Also, Estranged: I did not know grueling and dangerous jobs entitled a person to act like an asshole. Your job must be ESPECIALLY dangerous, then.

That was uncalled for. Estranged made a perfectly valid point about what constitutes being oppressed, and excused nobody for acting like an asshole. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graybeard wrote:
Felgraf wrote:

Also, Estranged: I did not know grueling and dangerous jobs entitled a person to act like an asshole. Your job must be ESPECIALLY dangerous, then.

That was uncalled for. Estranged made a perfectly valid point about what constitutes being oppressed, and excused nobody for acting like an asshole. Honi soit qui mal y pense.


I think this one particular comic is more about a concrete yet generally prominent act of sexism where construction workers hurl words at unsuspecting nearby women, which could be considered verbal harassment. It's not the oppression, it's that construction workers feel the need to cause unnecessary disturbance by making sexist remarks and whistles and whatever the hell they do.
This could be attributed to the fact that a general construction worker is more muscle than brain, and is therefore apart from being raised in a sexist environment without the capability or need to question it, they don't have the self-control to refrain themselves from such vile behavior.

It's not the oppression in this case, it's the unwanted, sexist behavior.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graybeard wrote:
Felgraf wrote:

Also, Estranged: I did not know grueling and dangerous jobs entitled a person to act like an asshole. Your job must be ESPECIALLY dangerous, then.

That was uncalled for. Estranged made a perfectly valid point about what constitutes being oppressed, and excused nobody for acting like an asshole. Honi soit qui mal y pense.


Estranged said:

"
Construction workers do a grueling and dangerous job. This devil girl must be so oppressed in comparison, doing paperwork and selling stuff to people using her looks as a bait. Everyone talks about the glass ceiling, noone talks about the glass floor."

It is a dangerous job, yep! But given the tone of his post (after all, Monique didn't say "Stop opressing her", she said "Leave her alone, harassholes"), the implication is that, because the construction worker's job is dangerous, it's OK for him to behave in such a fashion and not *really* wrong.

I also think it's weird he talks about the "glass floor", as if Absinthe has the worst possible position a woman can be in. And not, say, mentioning forced prostitution/sex trafficking, which I would argue is probably pretty fucking dangerous too. But hey, what do I know.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:

This could be attributed to the fact that a general construction worker is more muscle than brain, and is therefore apart from being raised in a sexist environment without the capability or need to question it, they don't have the self-control to refrain themselves from such vile behavior.

It's not the oppression in this case, it's the unwanted, sexist behavior.


This part I disagree with whole-heartedly, because it's both condescending AND excusing their behavior. "Oh, they just don't have the mental capacity to know better, they're just not *smart* enough to exercise such self control!"

I'm sure that's true for some people. I don't think that's true for every construction worker everywhere, and that's honestly kind of insulting to suggest, I think...
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"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graybeard wrote:
Felgraf wrote:

Also, Estranged: I did not know grueling and dangerous jobs entitled a person to act like an asshole. Your job must be ESPECIALLY dangerous, then.

That was uncalled for. Estranged made a perfectly valid point about what constitutes being oppressed, and excused nobody for acting like an asshole. Honi soit qui mal y pense.


It was a non-sequitur, pretty much. Or rather straight ups derailment. I mean people are specifically complaining about guys acting like assholes in a particular way, and Estranged saunters along and completely ignores the actual point to talk about something unrelated.

Given that context, since Estranged wishes to ignore the behavior of construction workers to talk about this instead, it does certainly appear as if they think that the behavior of the construction workers is somehow excusable (or atleast, ignore-able) in the face of the oppression they claim. (which is bullshit and probably hypocritical for other reasons)

EDIT: ah, Ninja'd by Felgraf
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wobster109



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 163

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estranged wrote:
Construction workers do a grueling and dangerous job. This devil girl must be so oppressed in comparison, doing paperwork and selling stuff to people using her looks as a bait. Everyone talks about the glass ceiling, noone talks about the glass floor.


No one doing any job should harass a woman (doing any job), such as talking about her body when they are strangers.

However, I agree that it's an unfair stereotype of construction workers. I'm really disappointed that Mr. Ishida chose to use that stereotype. Today's comic really struck me the wrong way, like look at those construction workers, such villains. I don't think they deserve to be cast as villains.
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Hitsch



Joined: 10 Mar 2013
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn it feels good to be a manster.

Seriously though, this must be the first strip of the feminist line that i don't get on my own. All i see is immature vs. infantile behaviour.
Anyone care to explicate?
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Echo



Joined: 18 Jul 2013
Posts: 711

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say, this is specifically a major Devilcorp construction project. I'm not particularly surprised that the construction workers they use are devil-people, and I think it's a bit too much of a leap to assume that they represent *all* construction workers, not just Devilcorp employees/contractors (who tend to be devil-people across the board, in all sectors of Devilcorp activity).
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2844
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitsch wrote:
Damn it feels good to be a manster.

Seriously though, this must be the first strip of the feminist line that i don't get on my own. All i see is immature vs. infantile behaviour.
Anyone care to explicate?


I'm going to assume you mean well before Monkey or Dennis put you on the insult train.

The catcalling is degrading. Catcalling only serves to build up the catcaller by asserting dominance over someone by putting them in an embarassing position. Notice how the devil girl expresses extreme discomfort and yet they don't stop. Her humiliation is funny to them, it makes them feel better than her.

The devil girl is in a lose/lose situation. If she ignores them, the catcalls continue. If she plays along, the catcalls continue. If she yells at them like Nique has, they laugh it off because hey crazy wimmen amirite? and the catcalls continue. Why should they take her seriously? She's not intimidating enough to them.

To continue something that makes someone feel vurnerable and uncomfortable makes you an Asshole with a capital A. (I believe it's also called bullying) Yet guys like the construction workers continue because they think it's harmless fun and have been raised by society to ignore any discomfort in the other party to pursue their own entertainment. (this is why date rape happens)

It's interesting that you mention immature behavior because this is often how it's labelled. "Oh they're just being immature, ignore them!" This is how the perpetrators can keep doing what they do. And sure, for you one time might not seem a big deal. Two times also. But imagine this on a constant basis. Every. Freaking. Day.

I have read about women who take a longer route just so they can avoid their harassers. I still find it surreal that a group have expressed they hate this and yet others say they shouldn't find it a big deal. That's problematic.


Other Sinfesters are also much better at explaining this, so go read their posts as well.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6573

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys remember that time a construction working was working on my neighbors back yard and used it as an excuse to spy on me when I was naked in my own home?

Oh wait I don't think I told anyone about that because I was Mortified.
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Graybeard



Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:

This could be attributed to the fact that a general construction worker is more muscle than brain, and is therefore apart from being raised in a sexist environment without the capability or need to question it, they don't have the self-control to refrain themselves from such vile behavior.

This is a rather ... different concept of "fact" than what I think is in the dictionary. Yes, that is the stereotype. But one of the great dangers a society faces is in confusing "stereotype" with "fact."
Zhuinden wrote:

It's not the oppression in this case, it's the unwanted, sexist behavior.

Fair enough. Estranged's point still stands.

wobster109 wrote:
However, I agree that it's an unfair stereotype of construction workers. I'm really disappointed that Mr. Ishida chose to use that stereotype. Today's comic really struck me the wrong way, like look at those construction workers, such villains. I don't think they deserve to be cast as villains.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.
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