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Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity, and the rest
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
All the US states where marriage and civil unions are legal - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/02/26/the-state-of-the-states-on-same-sex-marriage-in-1-map/

Left coast is the best coast!

Sadly, moving from unions to marriage equality in OR is going to be harder than it ought to be. They got swept up in the constitutional change fervor a decade ago and changing it back is going to be really hard. Disappointing for a state that's otherwise pretty rad.


i'm confused:
Quote:
As of today, there are 33 states where gay marriage is banned, 16 states and the District of Columbia) that allow same sex marriage and 10 that recognize civil unions and/or other same sex partnerships.

33+16+10 seems to be 59, which is more states than i seem to remember us having. and there only seem to be 4 with the light-purple civil union color.

i mean, i am glad we are making progress and all, but i'm not sure just adding more states is going to be the way to go.

a lot of the movement now seems to be courts striking down gay marriage bans because they violate - what is it, the equality clause? so the question, i guess, will be whether a civil union grants the people in it the same status under law as marriage - if not, those will probably disappear too. perhaps even without needing a new law.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Arizona won't be allowing bigoted Christians to refuse to serve gay or suspected gay people - http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/politics/religious-freedom-states/


jon stewart had a segment on that last night. seems the law was so broadly written the it would have allowed Muslims to refuse service to Christians! quelle horreur! so all the legislators who voted for it are now backpedaling furiously and saying they didn't really have time to read it or anything....

wonder whether the chance that letting christians use their religion as a reason to be a bigot will also allow other people to show bigotry towards christians will torpedo any of the other ..ugh, 12 similar bills mentioned in that article.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Arizona won't be allowing bigoted Christians to refuse to serve gay or suspected gay people - http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/politics/religious-freedom-states/


jon stewart had a segment on that last night. seems the law was so broadly written the it would have allowed Muslims to refuse service to Christians! quelle horreur!

Man, close call! Some establishments might have discriminated against them based on the proprietor's religious beliefs!
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really hate it when people say something in line with my gender/the gender I want to be seen as but then backpedal. Like today I was being stupid and decided to put my sunglasses on in an (indoor) group photo. Someone joked with me saying "So you're gonna be 'that guy' are you?" and then the person next to me said something like "she's not a guy!". And I just get a massive sinking feeling and mutter "I kind of am..." but they didn't hear me. I know if I want people to refer to me how I want I need to tell them but I just really, really don't want to. I feel like the biggest imposition. I just really want it to be automatic. I'm actually really afraid it will never get to that stage, that I'll never "pass" and so spend the rest of my life fighting just to get people to not call me "she".
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
I really hate it when people say something in line with my gender/the gender I want to be seen as but then backpedal. Like today I was being stupid and decided to put my sunglasses on in an (indoor) group photo. Someone joked with me saying "So you're gonna be 'that guy' are you?" and then the person next to me said something like "she's not a guy!". And I just get a massive sinking feeling and mutter "I kind of am..." but they didn't hear me. I know if I want people to refer to me how I want I need to tell them but I just really, really don't want to. I feel like the biggest imposition. I just really want it to be automatic. I'm actually really afraid it will never get to that stage, that I'll never "pass" and so spend the rest of my life fighting just to get people to not call me "she".


I don't know if this helps, but *you're* not the one imposing, and for some peopleI think it will be automatic. We have a counselor at the camp I volunteer at that is transitioning, too. And I (and I'm pretty sure most of the other counselors, though.. I can't see into their heads?), *DO* just think of him as a guy. 'Cause he is! I *think* the girls grasped that he was a guy pretty fast, too. (I say think because... my brain is currently *utterly shot* from 3 weeks of research crunch time.)

Although, that may not be what you meant? Since we do know him already, so it's automatic *now*..
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
I really hate it when people say something in line with my gender/the gender I want to be seen as but then backpedal. Like today I was being stupid and decided to put my sunglasses on in an (indoor) group photo. Someone joked with me saying "So you're gonna be 'that guy' are you?" and then the person next to me said something like "she's not a guy!". And I just get a massive sinking feeling and mutter "I kind of am..." but they didn't hear me. I know if I want people to refer to me how I want I need to tell them but I just really, really don't want to. I feel like the biggest imposition. I just really want it to be automatic. I'm actually really afraid it will never get to that stage, that I'll never "pass" and so spend the rest of my life fighting just to get people to not call me "she".


Hugs for you Ennis! I can't speak for the people you are with but I always make a mental note when someone corrects me on their gender to not forget. I did have one time that I forgot but that's more because I barely spoke to the person (and only on the phone). Only jerks would say something else on purpose imo.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
I don't know if this helps, but *you're* not the one imposing, and for some peopleI think it will be automatic. We have a counselor at the camp I volunteer at that is transitioning, too. And I (and I'm pretty sure most of the other counselors, though.. I can't see into their heads?), *DO* just think of him as a guy. 'Cause he is! I *think* the girls grasped that he was a guy pretty fast, too. (I say think because... my brain is currently *utterly shot* from 3 weeks of research crunch time.)

Although, that may not be what you meant? Since we do know him already, so it's automatic *now*..

Well, I'm going based on my parents, both of whom would seem to prefer I just never say anything about it to anyone and yet think they're being uber-accepting because they're at least using my preferred name! (But pretty much nothing else.) And there are times they don't even do that, like for my mum if she's talking about me with someone else, and my dad with his lawyer because "it's not your legal name and if I call you something different now it might screw up the documents". Neither of them use any pronouns other than "she", and I have directly talked to my mother about it several times (I live with her). It's been pretty much only other trans* people that get these things right, whereas it seems like every cis person talks about how hard it is and expects praise for things like "I was so used to seeing you as a girl, I saw you as a masculine girl, but eventually I managed to change that".

I went on a bit of a rant... but anyway, the most awkward thing about it is that I'm really agender but being put in the female paradigm just feels extremely wrong, whereas it's not a perfect fit but I don't mind, even like, being seen as male. On top of physical dysphoria too, I guess. But I feel really ridiculous insisting on something like being seen as a guy, because I know if I were born AMAB I'd be distancing myself from the concept as best I could for the most part. It's like I have to go on this really roundabout journey to get where I actually want to be, being read as male but not really as a "man", but with the idea of me being a woman/girl being utterly ridiculous. Often it feels like a journey more away from something than towards anything.

Yinello wrote:
Hugs for you Ennis! I can't speak for the people you are with but I always make a mental note when someone corrects me on their gender to not forget. I did have one time that I forgot but that's more because I barely spoke to the person (and only on the phone). Only jerks would say something else on purpose imo.

People can do a lot of jerky things without thinking they're doing anything wrong. It's easy for them to justify it when the thing someone's asking them to do is "outside the norm", like oh they're asking for special treatment, why can't they just accept what they actually are, I'm not changing the way I speak for them.

Also as I may have said, I have massive problems correcting people in person. I would literally rather sit there in (emotional) pain than inconvenience others and "draw attention to myself" (to quote my dad). That's why I want it to be automatic, I don't want to disrupt whole conversations because someone called me "she". I just want to be a socially awkward person who at least gets called the right pronouns, or close enough.
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Echo



Joined: 18 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a way to just have a quiet word with someone later, or drop them an e-mail or something, when they get things wrong? I'm totally with you on the whole not-liking-confrontations thing, and not wanting to stop whole conversations to suddenly make them all about you, but... if you don't correct them when they do get things wrong, then you feel like crap, and they feel like they've not done anything wrong, and will keep doing what they've been doing, becoming increasingly convinced that they're getting it right because nobody's telling them they're wrong.

Or maybe get someone else to have a quiet word or something. It's just that when someone is getting things wrong, they probably need a bit of a stimulus in order to change their ways, rather than just waiting for them to work out how wrong they're getting things.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Dogen wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
All the US states where marriage and civil unions are legal - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/02/26/the-state-of-the-states-on-same-sex-marriage-in-1-map/

Left coast is the best coast!

Sadly, moving from unions to marriage equality in OR is going to be harder than it ought to be. They got swept up in the constitutional change fervor a decade ago and changing it back is going to be really hard. Disappointing for a state that's otherwise pretty rad.


i'm confused:
Quote:
As of today, there are 33 states where gay marriage is banned, 16 states and the District of Columbia) that allow same sex marriage and 10 that recognize civil unions and/or other same sex partnerships.

33+16+10 seems to be 59, which is more states than i seem to remember us having. and there only seem to be 4 with the light-purple civil union color.

i mean, i am glad we are making progress and all, but i'm not sure just adding more states is going to be the way to go.

a lot of the movement now seems to be courts striking down gay marriage bans because they violate - what is it, the equality clause? so the question, i guess, will be whether a civil union grants the people in it the same status under law as marriage - if not, those will probably disappear too. perhaps even without needing a new law.


I'm pretty sure this is because some states that have marriage equality also have civil unions. Civil unions are needed by elderly people who will be financially punished by marriage. (I forget how, but it really sucks.) IIRC, when marriage equality passed in Washington State, civil unions remained but gay couples were required to get officially married. Civil unions themselves remain the same. I'm fuzzy on that, and because I have a coldmI'm too lazy to go look it up.

So I don't think civil unions will go away, but I do think they won't be considered enough and states which only allow civil unions instead of marriage for queer people will have to fix their business.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Ennis wrote:
I really hate it when people say something in line with my gender/the gender I want to be seen as but then backpedal. Like today I was being stupid and decided to put my sunglasses on in an (indoor) group photo. Someone joked with me saying "So you're gonna be 'that guy' are you?" and then the person next to me said something like "she's not a guy!". And I just get a massive sinking feeling and mutter "I kind of am..." but they didn't hear me. I know if I want people to refer to me how I want I need to tell them but I just really, really don't want to. I feel like the biggest imposition. I just really want it to be automatic. I'm actually really afraid it will never get to that stage, that I'll never "pass" and so spend the rest of my life fighting just to get people to not call me "she".


I don't know if this helps, but *you're* not the one imposing, and for some peopleI think it will be automatic. We have a counselor at the camp I volunteer at that is transitioning, too. And I (and I'm pretty sure most of the other counselors, though.. I can't see into their heads?), *DO* just think of him as a guy. 'Cause he is! I *think* the girls grasped that he was a guy pretty fast, too. (I say think because... my brain is currently *utterly shot* from 3 weeks of research crunch time.)

Although, that may not be what you meant? Since we do know him already, so it's automatic *now*..


For me, I've had friends say, "I don't get it, I see you as a guy, so something is wrong with the other people." Which is nice and supportive, but I used to think they were just trying too hard to make me feel better, like they were just humoring - because if it was true, why would so many people I don't know well not get it? Now I think that at least for some people, they literally see me as what I identify with, and really can not understand why other people see something different.

I am thinking this because I can't comprehend why anyone misgenders my partner or my roommate or my other trans friends. i've looked at many a trans and cis person, and my trans friends simply do read as male for me. So I can't tell if gender vision changes with a different understanding of gender.

It's great to have supportive friends, and that supportive bubble is important, but the world is big and full of exhausting shit. I hope you can get q bubble, Ennis, so you can just chill in whatever and know it's all okay.

I've got an exercise for you, though, if you haven't tried it before. Next time you are out and about, pick a set amount of time - a minute, an hour, whatever. In that time, imagine that everyone around you is trans. Literally everyone. Live in that world for a bit. It's weird, but it's a bit of a break. I've also found that going to pride in Seattle when I passed less often was great; though everyone thought I was a lesbian, it was something else being surrounded by queer people and allies. It was bizarre and I wished it was a country I could move to.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Echo wrote:
Is there a way to just have a quiet word with someone later, or drop them an e-mail or something, when they get things wrong? I'm totally with you on the whole not-liking-confrontations thing, and not wanting to stop whole conversations to suddenly make them all about you, but... if you don't correct them when they do get things wrong, then you feel like crap, and they feel like they've not done anything wrong, and will keep doing what they've been doing, becoming increasingly convinced that they're getting it right because nobody's telling them they're wrong.


That gets really exhausting when it's a lot of people in your life, and it's happening on top of day to day misgendering by strangers. Also, some people misgender because they just don't believe what they've been told, and they don't care, they've decided on this other person's gender already.

It gets easier when at least a few people consistently use the pronouns and name they are asked to. In that case, a lot of people appear to find it very awkward to use the wrong thing. But if it's just you alone, that is really hard - and if it does no good, then it's all for nothing.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh, go Disney:

http://news.yahoo.com/disney-ends-funding-boy-scouts-over-gay-policy-220320665.html

Quote:
LOS ANGELES (AP) The Walt Disney Company will cut funding to the Boy Scouts of America beginning in 2015 because of a policy that bans gay adult leaders in the organization.

The Boy Scouts organization is "disappointed" by the decision, which will affect the organization's ability to serve children, Deron Smith, a Boy Scouts spokesman, said in a statement Sunday. Disney does not provide direct funding to the Boy Scouts, but it donates money to some troops in exchange for volunteer hours completed by Disney employees, he said.

"We believe every child deserves the opportunity to be a part of the Scouting experience and we are disappointed in this decision because it will impact our ability to serve kids," he said.

David Jefferson, chief spokesman for The Walt Disney Company, did not respond to calls or emails.

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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disney's a company that was born out of an age of the whole good ol' boy patriarchy ( woo hoo http://holykaw.alltop.com/1938-rejection-letter-from-disney-to-female-a ) so when the boy scouts end up in a situation in which they're getting the shitlist treatment from disney, it's time to wake the fuck up etc etc etc

to note: one of the reasons why the scouts have been so sclerotic and stubborn on issues like gay marriage is moreso than just its general religious underpinnings but that there's been a general and weird collusion influencing scouting policy and membership by the LDS church, which had been getting weirder for a while.
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Ennis



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand why there are Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Why don't they just integrate? Or why doesn't someone start up just a gender-neutral "Scouts"?
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that would be in the Boy Scouts' best interests, because then they could sell Girl Scout cookies, which everyone wants way more than whatever the hell the Boy Scouts typically sell (popcorn, i think?)
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