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May 7: Uh oh...
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
what about "delivery people should be safe" and "the safety of delivery people is important" is confusing you?

and what about "there are many ways to make clio's fantasy come true." says that her fantasy requires some people putting their lives at risk? her full fantasy might be that there will be no poverty, no crime against delivery people, so that any cabbie is not afraid to pick anyone up, and pizza will be delivered everywhere..

just because two problems aren't equally severe doesn't mean it's right to ignore the lesser one. because it's not just about getting food delivered to you door - it's about getting _anything_ delivered to your door. or a cab at your door. why is it right that a law-abiding person (and OklahomanSun himself says 99 out of 100 deliveries did not involve a robbery) - why is it right that that person has to just accept even an inconvenience that the majority of people don't have to? why is it not a problem that some people are forced to accept a second-class existence?

the problems of a pizza delivery guy are part of the problems of the whole world. why is your only goal to keep that guy safe? i find _that_ conversation a bit strange. there are, after all, at least two solutions to the delivery situation: 1) you stop delivery to any place that looks iffy, leaving the people in that place trapped in a world not only riddled with crime and poverty, but deprived of pizza or 2) you fix the world so there isn't any poverty, and none of the crime driven by that property, and pizza guys can deliver everywhere! you seem to feel that 1) is sufficient, so why bother trying for 2)? i, on the other hand, am all in favor of pushing on to 2). maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow - but if i don't even think it's worth doing (because hey, one just results in yet one more minor inconvenience for some people who are Not Me!), i wouldn't even make the attempt.



Let me say first that my fantasies aren't cramped, it's just that they're not fallacies. Fixing poverty? That is not something that can be done without an entire paradigm shift in the world. Failing that, all that can be done is a shifting around of poverty. I've communicated my thoughts on the broader subject, and I think that what I want is something possible. People can wish for totally impossible things all they want and call them a fantasy and think that's ok, but I find that wishing for something ridiculous like "an end to poverty" is pointless. It's like when beauty pagaents have girls standing up there wishing for world peace. At any one point in this world, there's something like 18 wars going on, and we've been in a state of war somewhere on this planet for more than 2,000 years.

My "fantasy" is this. We stop redistricting based on race and set up common sense, bipartisan state and federal districts. We rebalance school aid and create incentives for teachers so that we can revitalise poor schools. Instead of having tax credits for oil companies, we create a broad spectrum of tax credits for inner city businesses and also a tax credit for working poor families that send their children to college. We also need to take a look at policing in any urban or high crime area. Right now the focus is on punishment and low level crime, which puts young black kids especially on a early path for a difficult life.

Those are some of the ideas I have in my fantasy, and those are some major steps that could easily be done to help remove the problems that slavery and later segregation and "redlining" created in our inner cities. It's things like that which will create the sort of environment that will bring back business and bring back services we are discussing here, taxies and service drivers.

That's a much more reasonable way to have the discussion than for people to be insinuating that service drivers are simply racist, and it's also more functional than just saying "Oh it's a fantasy."

Fantasies are great, but I have spent the majority of my life putting my thoughts, emotions, and efforts into things that either are, or can be made substantive.

So I've now discussed my personal "fantasy" a bit more, and I think I've demonstrated that by having a fantasy that can actually exist in the real world, you can be a much more useful person. May I just make another comment? Your comment which was bolded and enlarged is a giant straw man. At no point during this thread did I indicate that was my "only goal" as you mentioned it, and that's so foolish a way to put it that I am insulted at the impolite attempt to mislabel what I've been discussing.
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Midnight Tea



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 193
Location: In the Haunted Lands

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Sun, you seem a nice enough guy. You seem intelligent and your social and ideological priorities generally seem to be in the right place.

That said? Word of unsolicited advice if I may: If you get caught with your foot in your mouth, the next course of action isn't to continue chowing down on your own leg.

Honestly, I thought your unconscious association was a little bit racist. But you know what? It's okay, we all are. I do think it's kind of a shame "racist" is such a loaded word that it describes everyone in the spectrum of "I consciously/unconsciously buys into assumptions, stereotypes or media portrayals" to "I secretly/not-so-secretly think these people are less human than I am and a threat to my way of life". I can't claim to know you personally, but I get some sense you're not the latter.


(Though the Sinfest forums did have such an individual once. Watching him get torn to shreds was quite entertaining. He pretty much insisted up until leaving in a huff that he wasn't a racist, but that still he finds it worrying that America won't have enough whites being born in the future. Truly a tard of the first order.)
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe he might feel comfortable actually listening if you first explain to him that there's a bunch of cognitive biases that make us all prejudicial, especially based upon past experiences.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Maybe he might feel comfortable actually listening if you first explain to him that there's a bunch of cognitive biases that make us all prejudicial, especially based upon past experiences.


I've been saying this for 5 pages.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Maybe he might feel comfortable actually listening if you first explain to him that there's a bunch of cognitive biases that make us all prejudicial, especially based upon past experiences.


I've been saying this for 5 pages.

No, not quite. What you've been doing is the equivalent of this: You've told a woman she has some 'nice cans', despite how fat her ass is, and you are now staring dumbfounded on the ground unsure of why she just kneed you in the balls.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Maybe he might feel comfortable actually listening if you first explain to him that there's a bunch of cognitive biases that make us all prejudicial, especially based upon past experiences.


I've been saying this for 5 pages.

No, not quite. What you've been doing is the equivalent of this: You've told a woman she has some 'nice cans', despite how fat her ass is, and you are now staring dumbfounded on the ground unsure of why she just kneed you in the balls.


What's most embarrassing here is that you probably think you've turned a nice phrase there.


I notice you haven't once engaged anything I've actually said about the social and infrastructure problems that have created this awful situation and my idea on fixes.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun - your suggestions for changing the world sound great - and you only waited 4 pages after saying that clio's dream was problematic to actually tell us what a more realistic dream was! after 3 pages full of stories about how unsafe the lives of taxi drivers and delivery guys are. which is probably why i figured that was all you cared about, what with you spending all that time explaining why you were right to focus on the plight of the delivery guys, and that of the other people was trivial. your "solution", to date, was to remove one population at risk, and leave another population in harm's way. that's all limiting delivery areas does.

let's just take a quick look back at where this started:

OklahomanSun wrote:
Echo wrote:
Clio Mirembe.


I sympathize with that, but there's a lot of sticky in that comic.

It's difficult, for example, to force private enterprise. I think with the example of transportation, especially considering that taxis in large cities are an essential part of the overall transportation infrastructure, there needs to be a set of rules in place to ameliorate this problem. However, there's a reality out there that can't be ignored, and that's the level of crime in some neighborhoods. We can discuss and agonize over the reasons why and I don't mean to imply that any one group has an inherent proclivity for violence, but ultimately it's there.

When I was at college I worked at a pizza store as a cook and a delivery driver. We were a campus place and we made a ton of cash there, until our building was bought by the university to create more student housing. We moved over the summer to a new location and that changed the delivery area.

We now had a section of neighborhoods at the edge of our "delivery promise zone" of x miles. These new neighborhood were, to use an uncharitable term, ghettos.
<cut>
There's a difficult line there when you demand that a service be given to a high crime area. You may be forcing someone to risk their lives.


you start by saying her (very simple and simply presented) fantasy is problematic. because business stuff. and then you identified a particular problem you had had in the past, which caused you to stop doing business in what you, yourself, describe as a ghetto.

why does your mind go to that story, immediately? you have yet to explain that. you tell us that the problem was that she was in a high-crime area, based on zero evidence. there is, however, solid evidence that taxis do discriminate against black people outside of high crime areas - not just anecdotal but from actual studies. this has been brought up before. while you may have been justified in (ignorantly) assuming that only blacks in high-crime areas (what about whites in high-crime areas?) couldn't get cabs, you have been repeatedly presented with evidence that you were incorrect. you have not addressed this.

and why do you assume businesses can't change? your own fantasy would result in some changes in business practices - and recent history shows that business practices will change, in the face of community pressure. there is even a history of businesses being forced to change. so no real-world basis for that assumption either.

so why immediately label clio's fantasy as 'problematic'? hard to achieve, yes - but when has that ever stopped dreamers? when has that every made it unreasonable to dream?

this is the problem i've had with you. we are discussing a comic clearly labeled as a fantasy, and up until now, your arguments have all been along the line of how unreasonable it was of clio to have that particular fantasy. your fantasy would probably have the same end result - why is yours reasonable, and hers problematic?

and where do substantive changes begin, if not in someone's fantasies? if we never visualize a better world, why would we be motivated to change the one we have?
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Otoh



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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-prostitution-will-survive-the-rise-of-the-sexbots
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Maybe he might feel comfortable actually listening if you first explain to him that there's a bunch of cognitive biases that make us all prejudicial, especially based upon past experiences.


I've been saying this for 5 pages.

No, not quite. What you've been doing is the equivalent of this: You've told a woman she has some 'nice cans', despite how fat her ass is, and you are now staring dumbfounded on the ground unsure of why she just kneed you in the balls.


What's most embarrassing here is that you probably think you've turned a nice phrase there.


I notice you haven't once engaged anything I've actually said about the social and infrastructure problems that have created this awful situation and my idea on fixes.

Thanks for proving how much you don't get it. Very Happy
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Maybe he might feel comfortable actually listening if you first explain to him that there's a bunch of cognitive biases that make us all prejudicial, especially based upon past experiences.


I've been saying this for 5 pages.

No, not quite. What you've been doing is the equivalent of this: You've told a woman she has some 'nice cans', despite how fat her ass is, and you are now staring dumbfounded on the ground unsure of why she just kneed you in the balls.


What's most embarrassing here is that you probably think you've turned a nice phrase there.


I notice you haven't once engaged anything I've actually said about the social and infrastructure problems that have created this awful situation and my idea on fixes.

Thanks for proving how much you don't get it. Very Happy


Thanks for proving how much you don't get it. Very Happy
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, because if proving one has the high ground by repeating somebody worked in second grade, it'll work here.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
Right, because if proving one has the high ground by repeating somebody worked in second grade, it'll work here.


Considering his last few posts had demonstrated no interest in actually engaging with things I was saying, I figured the conversation was over and I wanted to echo his comment to make my own comment about how he'd been ignoring things in favour of childish comments and immaturity.

Satire.

It's a thing.
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