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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Mindslicer, have you ever seen in person or on video the protests that happen at abortion clinics?


Unless there's some aspect about them that makes the MA law not an abridgment of free speech rights, I'm unclear why the question is relevant to the discussion.


I'm asking because I want to know if you've ever seen how the protesters act. For instance, how close they get to the people, how loudly they shout, etc.


I've never taken part in such a protest, but I strongly doubt that exposing myself to one would change my opinion on this matter.


Most people doubt that experiences will change their opinions until they have the experience.
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spend time on a forum interacting with people aggressively expressing opinions with which I strongly disagree for the most part and have no desire to have some authority silence them, but sure, maybe I'd feel exactly the opposite about people voicing an opinion with which I generally agree.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maybe them crawling up some crying womans ass calling her a murderer would wring an emotional response
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worth noting that the Supreme Court upheld a Colorado buffer zone in 2000. So apparently buffers can be constitutional when we had Rehnquist, O'Connor, Stevens, and Souter, but not when we have Alito, Roberts, Sotomayor, and Kagan.

I don't have a well developed idea about the constitutionality of them, personally. I'm wary of anything that limits first amendment rights. However, assuming that existing laws against harassment will protect women, I think, is ridiculous. The purposes of anti-abortion protests at health clinics, in my personal experience, is that they exist specifically to harass and intimidate. If existing laws protected women this would be a defunct movement, but they don't, and protesters can stand on the sidewalk in front of a clinic and scream that they hope a woman is raped and murdered with impunity as she enters the clinic. They can call her a murderer as they take pictures of her and her car, find her personal information and share her decision with her friends, neighbors, kids, parents, and employers. The purposes of these activities is to intimidate. To terrorize. So, depending on harassment laws that already weren't working when buffer zones were instituted seems like avoiding doing anything about the problem that people are victimizing others for exercising their legal rights.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you should at some point experience the protests that happen at abortion clinics, so you know what it is you're defending. At least watch some videos.
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
It's worth noting that the Supreme Court upheld a Colorado buffer zone in 2000. So apparently buffers can be constitutional when we had Rehnquist, O'Connor, Stevens, and Souter, but not when we have Alito, Roberts, Sotomayor, and Kagan.


I really don't have a problem with that law, seeing as it doesn't function the way the MA law did. Justice Stevens' opinion seems sound to me.

Quote:
I don't have a well developed idea about the constitutionality of them, personally. I'm wary of anything that limits first amendment rights. However, assuming that existing laws against harassment will protect women, I think, is ridiculous. The purposes of anti-abortion protests at health clinics, in my personal experience, is that they exist specifically to harass and intimidate. If existing laws protected women this would be a defunct movement, but they don't, and protesters can stand on the sidewalk in front of a clinic and scream that they hope a woman is raped and murdered with impunity as she enters the clinic. They can call her a murderer as they take pictures of her and her car, find her personal information and share her decision with her friends, neighbors, kids, parents, and employers. The purposes of these activities is to intimidate. To terrorize. So, depending on harassment laws that already weren't working when buffer zones were instituted seems like avoiding doing anything about the problem that people are victimizing others for exercising their legal rights.


I disagree that the purpose of those protests is to harass and intimidate women, but acknowledge that one of the more common methods used is harassment and intimidation. Union disputes are much the same, though in many cases have explicit legal protection. If the purpose of anti-abortion events was just to harass and intimidate women, wouldn't that make the anti-abortion stance merely a pretext, a means to an end, and indicate that the protesters really don't have a problem with abortion as they claim?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purling In Anger: Arrest Breaks Up 'Knit-In' At Vermont Utility
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
If the purpose of anti-abortion events was just to harass and intimidate women, wouldn't that make the anti-abortion stance merely a pretext, a means to an end, and indicate that the protesters really don't have a problem with abortion as they claim?


Aren't you getting it backwards?
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
It's worth noting that the Supreme Court upheld a Colorado buffer zone in 2000. So apparently buffers can be constitutional when we had Rehnquist, O'Connor, Stevens, and Souter, but not when we have Alito, Roberts, Sotomayor, and Kagan.


there was a pretty terrifying bit of analysis on NPR this morning, about the extent to which the current court has rolled back precedents.

i don't think it can all be blamed on sotomayor and kagan.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
I spend time on a forum interacting with people aggressively expressing opinions with which I strongly disagree for the most part and have no desire to have some authority silence them, but sure, maybe I'd feel exactly the opposite about people voicing an opinion with which I generally agree.


no - what you need to experience is a face-to-face (with no buffer zone) interaction with people who _disagree_ with your opinion.

sorta like the one that the women trying to go to these clinics are experiencing.

no matter how vituperative an argument on line gets, it is orders of magnitude less frightening than one in person. with a stranger. who gives every indication of being able to do you harm.

_that's_ when you appreciate a buffer zone. and realize how much you can hear, even if the protesters aren't screaming in your ear.
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
I spend time on a forum interacting with people aggressively expressing opinions with which I strongly disagree for the most part and have no desire to have some authority silence them, but sure, maybe I'd feel exactly the opposite about people voicing an opinion with which I generally agree.


no - what you need to experience is a face-to-face (with no buffer zone) interaction with people who _disagree_ with your opinion.

sorta like the one that the women trying to go to these clinics are experiencing.

no matter how vituperative an argument on line gets, it is orders of magnitude less frightening than one in person. with a stranger. who gives every indication of being able to do you harm.

_that's_ when you appreciate a buffer zone. and realize how much you can hear, even if the protesters aren't screaming in your ear.


My parents always taught me that sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Must be different nowadays.

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A disgruntled Yankees fan who was caught sleeping through a recent game against the Boston Red Sox is suing after two announcers poked fun at his slumber on camera.

The New York Post reports Andrew Robert Rector filed a $10 million lawsuit against Major League Baseball, ESPN, and announcers Dan Shulman and John Kruk for allegedly directing a mean-spirited ďavalanche of disparaging wordsĒ after he fell asleep in the stands during the game April 13.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, because that's totally like facing a hostile mob.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I decide all of life's dilemmas through maxims. For instance, "nothing is so useless as a general maxim." Which is both a quote (Thomas B. Macauly) and a maxim.

That's why no one believes verbal abuse is a big deal. Because there's a pithy saying about it.
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose you could also be indifferent to what some stranger thinks of you, but that would be alot to ask of someone.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If what they thought of women trying to access health clinics were the only concern we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's the literal attempts to terrorize them. That was a pretty sloppy attempt at moving the goal post.
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