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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but is he currently abusing women, or is this behavior that happened in the past, but that he has discontinued?
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't know, don't care, would not be particularly receptive to an apology if he even bothered to try. odds are pretty high he's completely oblivious and has forgotten all about it.

it's not my job to care about his redemption and i emphatically do not.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouse, I do not understand where you are coming from. Let me rephrase the situation in another crime, say, er, arson. We have a bunch of people here who stand accused of arson. Some merely stuffed a burning newspaper through the letterbox in your front door that one time they were drunk, others repeatedly burned down someone's house.

Here we have a guy who set fire to a few cars and burned down someone's garage, like, twenty years ago. He admits to it and he is a reasonable and compelling voice for the community of arson victims. So why not forgive him and let him do his thing?

Does that sound stupid to you? It sounds stupid to me. I do not think Franken is innocent; several people have come out to accuse him. I don't care if he admits to it or not; it doesn't lessen the crime. It doesn't matter how long ago that guy sent the dickpic; Samsally still had to buy a new car.

mouse wrote:
i just want an idea of the way forward. i mean, i am _related_ to men, i have male friends, i don't want to just drop them from the human race or hold them to being perfect (i certainly am not). and i'm old enough to know that standards really have changed (if you don't believe that, try watching some old shows on MeTV or similar) - is it fair condemn someone for not being ahead of their time?

You know, house fires were really common back then. So what if someone helped it along a few times? They didn't realise it was a bad thing to do.

Does that sound stupid to you? Why are you so ready to forgive and forget? I don't care what happens to them. If they find a way to make it right, kudos. Until then, they stay out of the spotlights.
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Sojobo



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Here we have a guy who set fire to a few cars and burned down someone's garage, like, twenty years ago. He admits to it and he is a reasonable and compelling voice for the community of arson victims. So why not forgive him and let him do his thing?

Does that sound stupid to you?

That actually does not sound stupid to me at all.

He should still absolutely step down from his office, because symbols are important for making culture work. He should still absolutely be prosecuted for anything prosecutable, because laws are important for making society work. But I don't think there's anything profitable in vilifying him more than that.

Taemon wrote:
You know, house fires were really common back then. So what if someone helped it along a few times? They didn't realise it was a bad thing to do.

If I had been born and raised in 1920's Germany, it is absolutely possible that I would have been a concentration camp guard during WWII. I mean there is nothing inherently moral about me that would've made me break out of my lifelong conditioning, stand up and denounce my family, friends & culture as evil. We all have the potential to be monsters.

I am fortunate that I was instead raised in middle America in the 1980s. The me I am now would not be a concentration camp guard. My lifelong conditioning would instead make me choose to stand up and denounce such evil, even at the cost of being an outcast or martyr.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 14121
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Ayers was a terrorist in his younger days. Never served any time for it. The only people who died were some of his fellow terrorists when one of their plans backfired. However, the still created a lot of property damage and fear.
He moved on to become an academic and a more lawful political activist that has done a lot of good for a lot of people.

Should every positive he's ever done, or may have yet to do, be written off? Some people are more than ready to feel that way, and even moreso extend their disdain to the people even tangentially related to him in his post-terrorist career as an educator and community activist... people like Barack Obama.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 1818
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did this Bill Ayers pay for his crimes? He killed people and caused damage and social unrest. Did he serve time, did he pay a hefty fine? If not, how can we simply move past this because he also did good stuff? Let him do good stuff in private.

What bothers me so much is the immediate forgiveness of men assaulting women. If you commit a crime, you have to make up for it. It doesn't matter how long ago it is. It doesn't matter whether you'd have been a concentration camp guard. Most men make it through life without abusing women; it's not some saintly skill that a few precious males possess.

You're saying you need Franken because he does good? Well, elect someone else who does good. And who will not have their way with second-hand citi- women because maybe you shouldn't be willing to pay that price anymore.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Did this Bill Ayers pay for his crimes?

Crimes cannot be "paid for" by inflicting harm on the criminal. Retribuition in no way undoes the harm they have caused their victims. The ethical justification for the tortures of imprisonment is to protect other people from further crimes the criminal was likely to have committed.

Taemon wrote:
If not, how can we simply move past this because he also did good stuff?

We don't move past it because of the good stuff. Bad deeds cannot be "paid for" by good deeds. In fact, we don't have to move past it at all. We can have complex conceptions of who people are that includes them being bad and good at the same time.

Taemon wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you'd have been a concentration camp guard. Most men make it through life without abusing women; it's not some saintly skill that a few precious males possess.

Most men being raised right now will make it through life without abusing women. I don't know if that's true about most men raised 50 years ago. It absolutely isn't true about most men throughout all of history. Culture improves over time.

Even just a couple of decades ago, kids literally did not know what rape was. I mean, they knew not to rape rape. Attacking someone on the street and dragging them into an alley to have your way with them was obviously against the rules. But driving your date to a remote area and intimidating them into sex? That wasn't rape. That reluctance was just for show. They knew what they were getting into. Don't you watch movies?

We were absolutely taught to abuse women when I was a kid. The only reasons I "made it through" without doing so were social anxiety and circumstance. And when I learned better as an adult, it was because I absorbed new rules from a healthier culture, replacing old conditioning with new. I didn't break free using my own personal moral strength.

It matters very much whether I'd have been a concentration camp guard. It means my moral high ground is very much circumstantial, and I need to be damn careful to keep that in mind when I am judging others.
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Imry



Joined: 16 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm from Canada so I'm a bit removed from American politics. Sorry if I get something wrong.
Taemon wrote:
What bothers me so much is the immediate forgiveness of men assaulting women. If you commit a crime, you have to make up for it. It doesn't matter how long ago it is.
It feels like there's a lot of binary thinking about this: either "X is a creep and deserves to be excommunicated" or "X is a saint and nothing needs to be done". It's really more complicated than that. Yes there's people like Roy Moore who are beyond the pale, and there's Garrison Keillor who has one incident of groping a woman. mouse posted earlier about how him losing his job was an overreaction and I hope more people agree with this. I'd prefer to see him issue a public apology and... I dunno, donate to a women's charity? Use his star power to promote healthy consent? Something to show that he knows that what he did was serious.

I honestly don't know how I feel about Franken, but besides all the "excommunicate him!" talk I know a few people who feel like Franken shouldn't have lost his job, but he should atone for it in other ways. Him continuing to sit on the senate and take a strong role on women's rights might be one way.
Sojobo wrote:
Most men being raised right now will make it through life without abusing women. I don't know if that's true about most men raised 50 years ago. It absolutely isn't true about most men throughout all of history. Culture improves over time.
I've gotten way too many unsolicited dick pics to believe that things are as positive as you make it sound.

What you've written... it feels like how people were saying that racism was over (like, the KKK-ish "let's make our country a white ethnostate" racism) because it was dying with the old generation, but then came the alt-right bringing it back into fashion with young people making up a large part of it. One response was that racism won't wither and die by itself - we have to actively kill it. The same applies to rape culture.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Taemon wrote:
Did this Bill Ayers pay for his crimes?

Crimes cannot be "paid for" by inflicting harm on the criminal. Retribuition in no way undoes the harm they have caused their victims. The ethical justification for the tortures of imprisonment is to protect other people from further crimes the criminal was likely to have committed.

You mean, "no"?

Look, I think punishment is stupid. Inflicting pain on someone isn't going to make them a better person. But they have to pay - they have to make things up to the victim somehow. I'm in great favour of fines for that purpose. And why isn't there mandatory therapy for every criminal? If you burn down someone's house, you have to pay them. If you sexually attack someone, you have to pay them. And then get better. We do not just let them walk away.

Sojobo wrote:
Taemon wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you'd have been a concentration camp guard. Most men make it through life without abusing women; it's not some saintly skill that a few precious males possess.

Most men being raised right now will make it through life without abusing women. I don't know if that's true about most men raised 50 years ago. It absolutely isn't true about most men throughout all of history. Culture improves over time.

Oh, FFS. We're talking twenty, thirty years ago, not 1251 in Burnthewitch, Nosoul. I'm 47. I knew many, many men who made it through life without sexually abusing women. There is heightened consciousness now about the fact that women are people too and that sexism is highly ingrained in society but masturbating in front of someone/riding up against them/feeling up a 14 year old hasn't been considered fit for polite company in 1980 either. Those douchebags full well knew what they were doing.

Sojobo wrote:
It matters very much whether I'd have been a concentration camp guard. It means my moral high ground is very much circumstantial, and I need to be damn careful to keep that in mind when I am judging others.

So we shouldn't try concentration camp guards, is that what you're saying? I burned down your house 40 years ago but that's okay, we're not talking about it anymore?

Look, I'm a psychologist, I know all the prison and white coat-experiments. And I haven't believed in free will since 1991. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be consequences!
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imry wrote:
I'm from Canada so I'm a bit removed from American politics. Sorry if I get something wrong.

Eh. I'm Dutch ;-)

Imry wrote:
I honestly don't know how I feel about Franken, but besides all the "excommunicate him!" talk I know a few people who feel like Franken shouldn't have lost his job, but he should atone for it in other ways. Him continuing to sit on the senate and take a strong role on women's rights might be one way.

I would be more convinced that women's rights were on people's mind if they put someone better on that job. Someone who hasn't violated women's rights eight times and counting.

Maybe even a woman.
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