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December 20, 2017: MMXVII 43
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Caimsen



Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 751
Location: The good old World

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foolish wrote:
I hope I can have some of Oz79's popcorn


Guess she has to make some more since one little Pack wont be enough for this. Better make it a 50 Liter.



Well, what is there to say. One is a Robot with a rather minimal A.I. who is responding to a Controller.
And then we have an Robot with an A.I, far superior who has a own Will and where nearly nobody has controll over it.
As far as to the technical Point. Then we have the philosopical Point what they represent, or should represent.

Looks like the other Guys steped away. Good for them. Guess Sleaze will get a bit zapped. At least he can say that she got a electrifying Personality. *ba da tss*
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: December 20, 2017: MMXVII 43 Reply with quote

TinT wrote:
Pretty much. The vast, vast majority of prostituted women and girls are in it against their will. Violence, drugs, exploitation. That's what the sex trade is. Anyone supporting such a vile, exploitative industry, an industry that is fundamentally about human trafficking, is either being forced to by threats of violence or is an anti-feminist promoting the objectification of women and girls.


and while tat probably wasn't thinking along these lines, consider all that is coming out from harassment allegations against weinstein et al. in many cases, women were forced to do things they didn't want/put up with things that were offensive because they were forced by threats of losing their jobs, their careers, and in some cases with threats of physical violence. and that's also what kept them quiet and even continuing to work with their abusers - and then faced with "well if it really happened, why didn't she say anything years ago" response, when they finally _do_ talk about it.


it isn't just sex workers who are forced to do and say things they don't want to.
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Tyger42



Joined: 16 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: December 20, 2017: MMXVII 43 Reply with quote

TinT wrote:

Pretty much. The vast, vast majority of prostituted women and girls are in it against their will. Violence, drugs, exploitation. That's what the sex trade is. .


I see you completely missed the sarcasm.

I'm sure you have the peer reviewed research you can cite to back that up? Peer review to verify that it's unbiased and not cherry picked data? Or are you just parroting claims you've heard on Tumblr?

Neither I nor anybody else will deny that there are women in such jobs completely against their will. Either through threats of violence or "leashed" via addictions. Honestly, the fear of seeking out help from authorities to help deal with abusive "pimps" is a large part of what makes it so easy to get away with that nonsense. In other words, prostitution being illegal has only made these problems WORSE.

But if you're going to state it's the majority that are in it against their will, you need to back that shit up. I'll be far more willing to grant you that in the case of "street walker" prostitutes, but the ladies in legit strip clubs and the rare legit brothels? Not so much.
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TinT



Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: December 20, 2017: MMXVII 43 Reply with quote

Tyger42 wrote:
TinT wrote:

Pretty much. The vast, vast majority of prostituted women and girls are in it against their will. Violence, drugs, exploitation. That's what the sex trade is. .


I see you completely missed the sarcasm.

I'm sure you have the peer reviewed research you can cite to back that up? Peer review to verify that it's unbiased and not cherry picked data? Or are you just parroting claims you've heard on Tumblr?

Neither I nor anybody else will deny that there are women in such jobs completely against their will. Either through threats of violence or "leashed" via addictions. Honestly, the fear of seeking out help from authorities to help deal with abusive "pimps" is a large part of what makes it so easy to get away with that nonsense. In other words, prostitution being illegal has only made these problems WORSE.

But if you're going to state it's the majority that are in it against their will, you need to back that shit up. I'll be far more willing to grant you that in the case of "street walker" prostitutes, but the ladies in legit strip clubs and the rare legit brothels? Not so much.


Libertarian-style legalization isn't the answer; that only leads to 1) legitimizing the patriarchal notion that men have a fundamental right to access women and girls bodies; and 2) increases trafficking and other abuse due to increased demand and the cover of "legitimate" brothels.

However, feminists aren't arguing to maintain the status quo for prostituted women and girls, which is why the whole "SWERF" as a slur is nonsense. Feminists aren't excluding sex workers, they're about eliminating sex slavery and abuse. Follow the Nordic model, which decriminalizes the actions of the prostituted women and girls, while keeping the actions of pimps and johns--the abusers in the system--illegal. So women and girls can go to the police without repercussion.
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Tyger42



Joined: 16 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're aware that there are male prostitutes and strippers, too, right? You're aware that by telling women they CAN'T work these jobs, you're controlling their bodies as much as any "patriarchy", right? And, honestly, legalizing selling of a service doesn't give any legitimacy to the notion that you own the service provider. Your claim makes as much sense as saying that lawn services legitimize the notion that you can own landscapers. There's a difference between purchasing a service from someone and purchasing the person.

And I'm not talking full "anything goes" legalization. License it, require health screens regularly, but, most importantly, heavily regulate the "management" and give the workers a way to report such abuses without fear of being thrown in jail themselves.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: December 20, 2017: MMXVII 43 Reply with quote

If there is a system in place regulating the activities of sex workers, it will work to protect the workers and make the business generally more legit. You might have heard of gang activity during the prohibition era: When something that people want is strictly prohibited, underground businesses show up and play by their own rules: That's what's going on in the darker sectors of the sex industry.

The sex industry will not cease to be a thing, and it isn't up to anyone to tell sex workers that it shouldn't be a thing. The best we can do is choose how it works.

In Argentina it's very easy: Sex work is legal, pimping isn't. That way sex workers can go to the proper authorities if they find themselves assaulted, and they are free to manage their prices and working conditions, and retain full autonomy of what they will and won't do with their bodies. I don't know if it's perfect, but at least they can be protected by legitimate authorities instead of pimps.
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Tyger42



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: December 20, 2017: MMXVII 43 Reply with quote

TinT wrote:
Feminists aren't excluding sex workers


MOST aren't. There are those that are and are very vocal about it. I had one person claiming to be a feminist literally tell me that sex work should not even be an option available to women, whether they WANT to perform such work or not. In spite of what those people label themselves, that is NOT a feminist attitude. That's pretty much the opposite. "You're free to choose your own path unless it's one I don't approve of" is not feminism.
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cleocatra



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:46 am    Post subject: Re: December 20, 2017: MMXVII 43 Reply with quote

TinT wrote:
Tyger42 wrote:
TinT wrote:

Pretty much. The vast, vast majority of prostituted women and girls are in it against their will. Violence, drugs, exploitation. That's what the sex trade is. .


I see you completely missed the sarcasm.

I'm sure you have the peer reviewed research you can cite to back that up? Peer review to verify that it's unbiased and not cherry picked data? Or are you just parroting claims you've heard on Tumblr?

Neither I nor anybody else will deny that there are women in such jobs completely against their will. Either through threats of violence or "leashed" via addictions. Honestly, the fear of seeking out help from authorities to help deal with abusive "pimps" is a large part of what makes it so easy to get away with that nonsense. In other words, prostitution being illegal has only made these problems WORSE.

But if you're going to state it's the majority that are in it against their will, you need to back that shit up. I'll be far more willing to grant you that in the case of "street walker" prostitutes, but the ladies in legit strip clubs and the rare legit brothels? Not so much.


Libertarian-style legalization isn't the answer; that only leads to 1) legitimizing the patriarchal notion that men have a fundamental right to access women and girls bodies; and 2) increases trafficking and other abuse due to increased demand and the cover of "legitimate" brothels.

However, feminists aren't arguing to maintain the status quo for prostituted women and girls, which is why the whole "SWERF" as a slur is nonsense. Feminists aren't excluding sex workers, they're about eliminating sex slavery and abuse. Follow the Nordic model, which decriminalizes the actions of the prostituted women and girls, while keeping the actions of pimps and johns--the abusers in the system--illegal. So women and girls can go to the police without repercussion.


I'm not a libertarian, but I do have friends who are sex workers, and read what actual current sex workers say, and they tend to be for general legalisation, no criminalisation of their customers, no criminalisation of their jobs. There's a lot of abuse, rape, imprisonment, trafficking of cleaners/maids but we don't ban people from hiring people to clean their houses.

Also yeah please do remember there's men and non-binary people who do sex work too. Also while SWERF isn't a slur, it is a term used primarily to describe people who pretend to be feminists while disregarding anything sex workers say which isn't "sex work is evil and men force people to do it" like especially nowadays when a bunch of people can do cam shows, it's like saying that phone sex workers are exploited.

Tat really needs to check out pink and white productions too. I mean like more than just saying the existence of feminist porn doesn't negate the fact there's abusive porn.

Which is like, duh. The fact that there's ethical tailors doesn't excuse the garment factories which burn down.
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