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January 12, 2018: MMXVIII 5
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OlympianSoul



Joined: 25 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
OlympianSoul wrote:
In terms of the comic, it kinda does.


no, no it does not.

OlympianSoul wrote:
I just think the comic would benefit greatly if it had a character who didn't agree with either side,


you do realize that the feminist characters goals AND beliefs are "women and men should be equal and treated equal" and "men should not treat women in an unjust manner"

(aside from li'l sis, Who Is A Child, and an angry one - and demonique/nique's inner rage, who she has gotten into disagreements about this with before)

so you do realize what "not agreeing with" that means, right

um, lol


Yeah, poor choice of words on my part. I sort of meant that they shouldn't all agree on how to deal with the situation.
I should probably stop talking about this, I'm doing a pretty poor job
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that i can understand and agree with.

tat doesnt really develop enough of the sisterhood individually or as a group for there to be enough nuance or differing opinions about how to go about things, ... primarily because of the extensive cast making sharing a spotlight difficult ... and no other characters that share their views ("men and women should be equal"/"men should not treat women unjustly") really get the chance to discuss these things in enough detail ... and frankly i think that it'd be beneficial if he explored that, but c'est la vie.
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enchantedsleeper



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
yeah i mean, there definitely are non-conforming men! so thats totally possible. but it is also interesting is fuchsia depicting him leading that group of men to a "gender-free paradise" ... which could indicate that hes agender, or otherwise NB


Ooooh, you're right. I'd love if this turned out to be a hint at something more, rather than just a throwaway comment. Crim character development, pretty plz Tat?
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Caimsen



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Colourful Jester wrote:
Can't get used to a tall Crim.


He looks a bit older too.
Do we even know how old he is?


@Miss Magenta: Well, i just opend the Thread and got to the second Side instead of the first one and just saw that one Post from you, so i missed your other Posts. But thanks for the Infos.

Normaly you have some very valid Points, but this Time i dont agree with your Opinion, because i cant see him as a trans Lesbian and you are overinterpreting at this Point.
But one after another.

Miss Magenta wrote:
but like just to recap real quick

Miss Magenta wrote:
pretty interesting how it's only a character established as being a lesbian for years developing romantic feelings for a man suddenly makes her contemplate good, freedom, and often times forgetting about and ignoring her female lover and best friend - pretty interesting how fuchsia - again, a character established as a lesbian for years until this point [...]


We saw that she was in a Relationship with Blue, but that doesnt mean that she isnt bi. Beside that, i think it was more like a Friendship+ with Blue. They where best Friends, worked together and had some Fun. Otherwise i cant see how she would fall so "easy" in Love with him. We would have seen much more struggle for her (not that she really had it easy to be true) and that she was torn between Blue and Crim. Ok, Blue was very upset that Fuchsia left, so i guess Blue was more into it then Fuchsia. http://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2011-11-20

Good? Well i think i recall that she wanted to bring Hell over him and kill him, or something simular if he would have said no to her, so she had a rather long Way at that Point.

Miss Magenta wrote:

Miss Magenta wrote:
    - blue and fuchsia's relationship was flawed because tat was homophobic and lesbophobic, as he has admitted before in-comic.
    - nique and abby's relationship being portrayed as flawless is likely an attempt to atone for his mistakes and trying not to repeat them.
    - also its my lesbian opinion either it was compulsory heterosexuality and therefore fuchsia and criminy's romantic relationship is doomed for failure, or criminy's a closeted trans girl.


-This is rather the same like i said befor. Their Relationship wasnt flawed because of Tats Aversion against Gays. It was because it wasnt at such a Point like it is with Monique and Abby's. Beside that, i dont know if Tat is Lesbophobic. Most Guys who i know that they dont like Gays, dont have a real Problem with Lesbians. He made a few bad Jokes back then, but does that automaticly lead to that he was homophobic? You have it there in the Comic, Stereotypical Jokes, centered around Sex. He even made a Comic where he said he was misguided. But i never had the feeling that Tats Comic was ill meant.

A other thing is, that i dont really like the Word homophobic. Its not like People run screaming away, when they see a gay Person. Its a Aversion in my Eyes and not an Illness.

- Maybe. Or he wanted to show a very deep Relationship, since we didnt had a good one beside Crim and Fuchsia. Ok, maybe Francis and his Boyfriend, but thats it. We dont have any other working Relationship in Sinfest and that is somehow very sad. Exept Squish and his Buritos/Taccos. But i dont know if that really counts.

- My Opinion is that their Relationship is really lovely and shouldnt be doomed.
So you belive we just got it, cause Tat felt guilty to have a heterosexual Relationship. Maybe, i dont know for sure. Netherless, i am happy that we have it.

Miss Magenta wrote:


Miss Magenta wrote:
pretty interesting how tat never used (or uses) those terms in reference to fuchsia or any other character it could reasonably be applied to? even after he's started educating himself more on these kinds of issues? and what kinds of issues do you think this lack of clarification loops back into? and why do you think a lesbian would be upset that a character is ONLY referred to as a lesbian - not as being bi, not as being pan, not as being het, specifically referred to as being a lesbian multiple times - only for that character to fall in love with another that is canonically a man? what implications do you think there is in the concept of a character that is explicitly referred to a lesbian, and nothing else, finding a happier life in a heterosexual relationship versus her old lesbian relationship? what implications does this have on the artists view of lesbians? or better yet, the implications of the entire dynamic between blue and fuchsia - and their servitude towards the devil - before criminy's intervention?

yes, fuchsia could be bi or pan. but has she ever been referred to as such, versus all the times she's been referred to as a lesbian? and if it happened, would this suddenly fix everything wrong with how tat handled her character or her relationships in his ignorance? and will that suddenly fix all the hurt ive personally felt because of the way tat has handled lesbian characters and lesbian relationships? nique and abby being portrayed as flawless isn't going to make those problems or grievances go away! suddenly revealing that fuchsia is bi or pan isn't suddenly going to fix everything either! hell, i doubt breaking up crim and fyoosh and revealing it was compulsory heterosexuality would fix anything.

although revealing crim is a trans girl would make me personally feel a whole lot better about the whole mess.



We didnt got much Showtime of their RS in the last Years, befor that, they where rather present in the Comic.
Beside, you say are a bit pissed cause Tat put Fuchsia from a homosexuel Relationship, into an heterosexuel. I can understand that, since unneded Changes for Comiccharacters are something what have bugged me in the last few Years quite a few Times.... But thats a other Topic, what we better not get into.

On the other Hand, we didnt had so much Comics at the Start about Fuchsia or Crimney or at least about their sexuality.

Look. I can understand your frustrating about this. But the old Comics where rather easy and simple minded. Thats a Problem what Tat is trying to solve now, but he cant make it undo or just rewrite it. Ok, he let here and there a few things out, but thats probably just cause he doesnt have the Time to make more Spinoff Storys, just that the old Comics fit perfectly into todays Storyline. (Like this Comic http://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2011-09-25 where we can see that Blue is watching the Video with Lil E and D says that he is his Son and in todays Comic, Blue trys to figure out how Lil E is connected with D) Tat wasnt the brilliant Storyteller back then. He made Jokes and a bit of a loose conected Story, what develops into something deeper.

Crimney and Fuchsias Story is a classic one. He is a goody two Shoes, with a Soul nearly as pure as Snow. A Bookworm, who has respect for everybody and treats everybody equal and nice, exept you are bad to him. Ok, he may lack a bit at the social Point, if we look how things went with him and Amber. But one thing is for sure, he is not sexdriven or has a dirty Mind. Holding hands was something he thought as a Highlight on his first Date and seemed to be rather impossible. I really start to wonder how he became a Friend of Slick. They must be Friends since Kindergarden or somethign simular, otherwise i cant imagine anything else.
But we never had a Comic what woulds suggest that he is something like trans lesbian. Yes, he is not the archtyp of masculinity, but thats not a Reason why he should be not that. Beside that, it wouldnt change anything for him. He is a very nice Guy.

And she is Demongirl. A Woman who was turned into a Devil cause of her acts, who fell in Love with him. I dont want to go count now what all happend, since i know you remember it very well. Hey, you are the living Sinfestwikipedia Wink

Like i said, i can understand your opinion, but i cant agree with it. I think the two deserv each other. I mean, he went into Hell for her and she left a good Job in a very secure Position and was living a very comfortable Life. The only thing was is left would be that one of them would have to fight D to save the other. But i really hope that there wont be Drama for them in the near Future.


I really hope i havent overseen anything important what you have written...
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this stupid dumbass forum is so buggy that it logged me right as i was about to send a reply and it didn't even save the text or anything when i logged in OR backbuttoned and i'm not sure if i can be as concise as i was the first time and i really don't feel like editing the quotes again just to tackle every point in an organized manner but i'll try my best to tackle this in a concise, understandable way that gets my thoughts and feelings across while discussing facts and the history of the comic.

- fuchsia could be bi. fuchsia could be pan. we would never know. because she's not ever referred to as either of those at any point during the comic. instead of ever being referred to as bi or pan, fuchsia is explicitly only ever referred to as a lesbian and a dyke. dyke, btw, being a homophobic slur against lesbian women that tatsuya ishida, a man we are lead to believe is cis and straight, has no right to use or reclaim in the context of his comic. and if she's meant to be bi or pan he needs to write some kind of discussion about it in-comic.

- tatsuya ishida uses his comic to literally say that the comic had homophobic elements. that homophobic misconceptions and beliefs had colored his writing of the comic. baby blue and fuchsia, both as characters and their entire relationship and dynamic ... are based on homophobic and lesbophobic rhetoric, misconceptions, and beliefs. but regardless of that that, they WERE friends AND they were together romantically and sexually when off-duty.

- we are only left with any information that tatsuya ishida gives us. unless he writes and illustrates strips explicitly stating that fuchsia is bisexual, or that she and baby blue were just FWB (and/or baby blue's love was unrequited) ... there is nothing to suggest that. instead, what we ARE given, explicitly, in the text of the comic is that fuchsia is a lesbian, and she was with baby blue ... until she left her for crim. and that's all we have to go on.

sexuality can be fluid at times, and labels can come and go. but if we're meant to read either of those things as being factual ... they need to be discussed in comic. it's entirely possible for fuchsia to have identified as a lesbian in the past because she couldn't contemplate the idea of loving men AND women simultaneously before falling for criminy, and then changing labels as she learns more about herself and her sexuality, and sexuality in general ... but that'd need to be discussed in-comic for us to ever know for sure if that happened. as it is, all we have is fuchsia being referred to as a lesbian.

- i never said that she WAS good. regardless of whether she had any lingering violent or aggressive tendencies, this does not change the fact it's criminy's influence that made her contemplate goodness. she wanted to TRY to be good and to become a better person to impress him, to be with him, and for herself. and yes, despite her desire to want to become better ... the fact that it was very noticeable that she wasn't as evil as she used to be ... she still had moments where it was clear the devil's influences weren't completely erased. but at no point does she ever claim that she "wanted to bring Hell over him and kill him" if he were to reject her ... she does state "if he won't have me ... i'll cry." and goes on to say "but then after that... i will unleash a wrath so terrible it will scorch the hearts of men!" ... but she never says that it would be directed towards him, specifically, or threaten his safety in any way. in fact, she more or less says that she doesn't have it in her to hurt him at all.


http://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2009-05-29

http://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2009-04-17

... but this, again, does not change the fact that she was contemplating goodness, and the concept of being good. because of him. she says this in multiple strips and its shown when she no longer gains pleasure from preforming evil deeds and even developed PTSD from them - although more recent strips imply that shes never gotten any pleasure from it but instead simply became accustomed to them but i digress.

- i really can not be any clearer about this if i tried but tat literally explicitly makes it clear in the comic that his writing was influenced by homophobia, whether he intended to write something with harmful homophobic connotations or not is irrelevant because at the end of the day he did. and at the end of the day, he was influenced by homophobic and lesbophobic tropes, misconceptions, beliefs, and wrote narratives based on those influences. hence, francis's entire character or fuchsia and baby blue's entire characters and relationship.

baby blue and fuchsia's characters and relationship were based on lesbophobic concepts, there's no way around it, you can't disagree with it, that's factual. they're not fucking real. whether their relationship "wasnt at such a point like monique and abby's relationship" ... they were and still continue to be written by a man who openly and freely admitted that he had written some bigoted things and was influenced by prejudice. and i'm willing to understand and forgive him for that because i've been there too. i don't think his intent was to hurt, i don't think he thought deeply about these narratives or their implications or connotations.

but that doesn't change the fact that he still wrote a harmful narrative about a lesbian finding the right man and falling in love and finding happiness in a heterosexual relationship with a nice, friendly man instead of another sinful lesbian. give me a fucking break. and he can't just change the fact that he ever did ... he can't just undo what he's done. but he can acknowledge the ways what he wrote was harmful - which he has done with regards to francis, at least - and try to make up for it... and not make the same mistakes ... or explore those mistakes and write upon them to improve them, such as in the case of criminy and fuchsia's relationship and dynamic, and how that intersects with fuchsia's former relationship with baby blue.

- whether you like the word homophobic or not, that's the word thats used to explicitly refer to and discuss ignorance and bigotry against this very specific marginalized group we're discussing today... in this case non-straight individuals such as gay men and lesbian women. and no, "aversion" doesn't accurately OR appropriately describe what we're talking about and doesn't make sense in the context of our discussion. -phobic has been used for many years to also describe discrimination against whatever it's appended to and it's not really something you've got the right to change on a whim just because you don't like it. and there's nothing else to accurately describe or discuss the topic.

- i am not at all implying that monique and absinthe developing a romantic relationship was at all, in any way, a bad thing. i wanted them to develop a romantic relationship from the very first moment they interacted, and i still continue to be shocked and impressed that it actually happened ... and that their relationship has been so cute and sweet. i really love them! but it's important to note that completely healthy and happy relationships can still have struggles, especially without being sad.

it is a shame that they were never given the same depth or amount of development that criminy and fuchsia's relationship got. we never got an exploration of them developing romantic feelings for each other over time, or contemplating those feelings, ... or struggling with them, trying to reconcile these new feelings with old feelings and/or identities ... or even explicitly voicing these feelings the way criminy and fuchsia did.

and on one hand, i can understand why. tatsuya ishida is a man, and one we're lead to believe based on his few comments and the contents of his comic is straight and cis. what does he know about the lesbian experience or developing lesbian relationships? i don't fault him for that. but still, as a lesbian who was really excited for this relationship and their friendship, i can't help but be a little bummed out that it isn't as complex as any other relationship depicted in the series ... including criminy and fuchsia's relationship.

i'm not saying he definitely hooked them up solely because the only other instance of a relationship between two women was ... a lesbophobic mess. but it does seem reasonable AND LIKELY that the way he's handled them so far might be influenced by the mistakes he made the last time he handled a relationship between two women. i am not faulting him for this.

- criminy and fuchsia's relationship would be a lot lovelier if it weren't built on the lesbophobic idea that all a lesbian needs is to find the right man. lol

- just because he never wrote comics about them or their sexualities doesn't mean he couldn't write comics about them in the future. Rolling Eyes

- i'm not saying he should undo it or rewrite it. i strongly believe that ethically he can't and he shouldn't. and i've said that multiple times. and i'll say it many more. but i AM saying that he can write new material that makes up for it, or explores the mistakes he made in the past that can change the implications, connotations, or perceptions of them.

he wasn't a brilliant storyteller then, and he still isn't now. he's just a comic writer who is using the comic both as a device to explore his thoughts, his beliefs, to experiment with his art, and tell a story when he sees fit. but nothing exists in a vacuum, and each comic he did and continues to do has an effect and reflects him in some manner. and what i'm saying is he made lesbophobic writing decisions, and i'm backed up by statements hes made in the comic and in the resistance notes.

- just because criminy and fuchsia's relationship, story and narrative is "classic" does NOT mean it was well-handled or in any way ground-breaking or progressive. cuz as it currently stands, it wasn't. and it's not. it's not bad by itself - a nice shy boy who cares for and loves a troubled traumatized girl - but it's bogged down by so much of the narrative surrounding it. you can get that same basic story basically anywhere else without the bad taste of the surrounding lesbophobia. it's not an uncommon "new" concept. but i bet if i looked i could probably find it done better somewhere else.

- criminy can be all of those things, a goody two shoes with a soul almost as pure as snow, a book worm who respects everyone and treats everyone equally, nice, socially inept and shy ... he can still reach out to the troubled and conflicted fuchsia caught in a life she never asked for, who doesn't have to be cruel, who wasn't always the way she is ... and helping her understand all of that, and that she has the capacity to be as good as anybody whether she's a demon or not, that she is worthy of love and respect ... while also being a woman. which would be much more progressive and interesting narrative.

- i literally never said that there was anything in the comic that suggests he definitely is a trans woman and a lesbian. just that i would like for him to be, because it removes or otherwise changes the negative implications of his relationship with fuchsia while also preserving the heartfelt nature of their dynamic.

i suppose its easy to misinterpret my comments as a definite statement, but i'm not saying that he definitely is a trans woman and a lesbian in canon, just that it's possible for him to be one. and the strip this thread is discussing lends to that possibility - as fuchsia implies that criminy is not a man or does not perceive himself as a man. or at the very least, that she doesn't perceive him as one or believes that he doesn't have to be one. and this could theoretically could lead to an arc that explores that little detail, wherein fuchsia can still be a lesbian, and still be with criminy. because they're both women, and they're both lesbians.

so again i say: he can be all of those positive things, and being a woman wouldn't change that. the only thing it changes is that... he's a woman who loves other women. that's it. but as the man we're presumably meant to interpret him as, that doesn't make him bad but in the context of his relationship with a woman that has only ever been referred to as a lesbian, the dynamic is harmful ... and there are only so many ways for tat to explore the mistakes hes made writing their relationship. and this one is just my favorite.

because if criminy were a trans woman - and there are many ways to be a trans woman, and so many ways that he could be a woman, specifically - then that changes implications and connotations of the narrative.

instead of his relationship with fuchsia being the lesbophobic concept of a troubled lesbian just needing to find the right guy and finding happiness in a heterosexual relationship

the narrative becomes two differently marginalized individuals find comfort and love in each other, accepting and understanding each other



do you understand now?
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
fuchsia could be bi. fuchsia could be pan. we would never know. because she's not ever referred to as either of those at any point during the comic. instead of ever being referred to as bi or pan, fuchsia is explicitly only ever referred to as a lesbian and a dyke.


Pretty sure if someone was willing to use the word "dyke", they'd have no qualms about applying that term, or "lesbian", to someone who is actually bisexual or pansexual. Like, that's an actual constant issue, and even some bi people identify themselves to others as heterosexual or homosexual, to avoid complications that come with the bisexual/pansexual label.

Some open bi representation would be kinda nice.
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, that's true! ... hence why i mentioned that if she's bi or pan then there really should to be a strip mentioning it ... like three different times
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Caimsen



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Miss Magenta: Au. Sorry too hear that. I know that kind of Trouble.

I guess we would have to ask him in Person, but i guess he wont give us even then a good Answer.

Just stumbled over this, where Slick was really acting homophob. http://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2009-10-04
But you are right, it doesnt matter if i like the Word or not, it gets used and People will stick to it and give it a different meaning then what it has in my Eyes.


I know very well that even a healthy Relationship has it ups and downs and you can struggle rather much.
But give Monique and Abby more Time. They are just.... i think not 2 entire Years now there and the thing with Crim and Fuchsia started 2009. Ok, they got quit a few Comics, but there where no big Storys at that Time too. Jesus vs Devil, Lil E being bad, Budda flowing around on the Cloud, Monique being cool and fighting for Worldpeace and Slick... well, Slick was just doing Slick things and we had something to laugh about.

Miss Magenta wrote:

because if criminy were a trans woman - and there are many ways to be a trans woman, and so many ways that he could be a woman, specifically - then that changes implications and connotations of the narrative.

instead of his relationship with fuchsia being the lesbophobic concept of a troubled lesbian just needing to find the right guy and finding happiness in a heterosexual relationship

the narrative becomes two differently marginalized individuals find comfort and love in each other, accepting and understanding each other



do you understand now?


For me, the thing about Criminy and Fuchsia was allways just just what you said. 2 Persons who find comfort and affection from each other, not that she had just to find the right Man. Such an Idea is rather irritating for my Mind and i couldnt think that even the old Tat would have made such a move. He really cares for her.

http://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2010-06-18

Well, thanks to the discussion with you, i had to search for the Start of this and spend the entire afternoon with finding all of their Progress. A well spend Time i must admit Very Happy


But i have a other Question. What do you want to happen too them in the Future?


Another thing. It is really a pleasure to discuss with you. Just wanted to tell you that ^_^
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Pedro_Martini



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irinei wrote:
I always get nervous when Tat focuses on Criminy and Fuschia.

Me too, in a sort of "don't mess with perfection" way.

OlympianSoul wrote:
Yeah, poor choice of words on my part. I sort of meant that they shouldn't all agree on how to deal with the situation.

Consensus on ideology, but not methodology, is what you're getting at (I think).

Miss Magenta wrote:
crim is detached from masculinity and shows no interest in it
option one: criminy is agender.

Being detached from masculinity is sort of a component of the "detached from humanity" trope of nerds and bookworms *insert link to that TV trope site*, you could equally say he's detached from femininity.
I like the idea behind him being agender because of he seamless fluidity in the use of gender-based archetypes. For example...



"This type of thing" could just be general heroics, physical labour or romantic attachment, but Criminy's vast knowledge of history and culture makes me think he's referring to the "knight in shining armour" archetype (which Blue directly accuses him of in the next strip). When I first read this, it seemed Criminy was embracing this trope, which was then juxtaposed by the later strip...



... where he rejected step 2 of the "knight" mentality; saving the damsel. I liked this because I read it as further proof of Criminy's non-conformity, ability to experiment with his identity, and flexibility & selflessness when it came to problem-solving and situational-response. For certain, I don't know what he was thinking as he dug that hole, but it seems to fit nicely with the agender label.
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OlympianSoul



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I am oddly wondering what their kids would look like.
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't seen those 2009-2010 Fuchsia/Crim strips in ages and I'm surprised by how cute it is Very Happy

Anyways, long discussion here and there but it is somewhat worrying that the message here is that "in order to be free of Toxic Masculinity, you need to get rid of gender altogether".

Like, it's toxic masculinity that is the problem. Or is all masculinity toxic?

People tend to attribute both assertive behavior, or being determined / goal-oriented as aspects of masculine persona. Not all "traditionally masculine" traits are negative, nor should they be male-exclusive, but the idea of dismissing ALL aspects of ANY gender seems a bit radical?

Then again, I've previously preached "if we dismissed all gender and we just thought of ourselves as people, we'd get over all the false gender expectations that keep
us from truly being ourselves or whatever". That appealed to me a bit more 2-3 years ago, now I just think the whole discussion is irrelevant for some reason.

-------------------------------------------

Anyways, I feel like both expression of sexual behavior and romantic relationship dynamics are partly based on "gender" concepts, and if we assume Crim is genderless, wouldn't that make the relationship of Fuchsia/Criminy less?

I kinda want them to be all over each other like Nique is over Abby Very Happy
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OlympianSoul



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
I haven't seen those 2009-2010 Fuchsia/Crim strips in ages and I'm surprised by how cute it is Very Happy

Anyways, long discussion here and there but it is somewhat worrying that the message here is that "in order to be free of Toxic Masculinity, you need to get rid of gender altogether".

Like, it's toxic masculinity that is the problem. Or is all masculinity toxic?

People tend to attribute both assertive behavior, or being determined / goal-oriented as aspects of masculine persona. Not all "traditionally masculine" traits are negative, nor should they be male-exclusive, but the idea of dismissing ALL aspects of ANY gender seems a bit radical?

Then again, I've previously preached "if we dismissed all gender and we just thought of ourselves as people, we'd get over all the false gender expectations that keep
us from truly being ourselves or whatever". That appealed to me a bit more 2-3 years ago, now I just think the whole discussion is irrelevant for some reason.

-------------------------------------------

Anyways, I feel like both expression of sexual behavior and romantic relationship dynamics are partly based on "gender" concepts, and if we assume Crim is genderless, wouldn't that make the relationship of Fuchsia/Criminy less?

I kinda want them to be all over each other like Nique is over Abby Very Happy


It would be nice to see them try and take that next step... and then have Ishida make a running gag out of other characters interrupting them before they can "take the next step"
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Honestly, when I first found this series, I thought it was about Fuchsia and Criminy.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Anyways, I feel like both expression of sexual behavior and romantic relationship dynamics are partly based on "gender" concepts, and if we assume Crim is genderless, wouldn't that make the relationship of Fuchsia/Criminy less?

How is expression of sexual behaviour gender-based? I don't see that at all.
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah um ... you do realize agender folks can experience romantic love and sexual relationships? and often engage in both? so if criminy were "genderless" he and fuchsia could still be in a romantic relationship and/or eventually engage in sexual relations???? wtf u on man

i mean nevermind the fact that criminy has been shown to be uncomfortable and not interested in fuchsia's suggestions of a sexual relationship but, you know, that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand
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Caimsen



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
I haven't seen those 2009-2010 Fuchsia/Crim strips in ages and I'm surprised by how cute it is Very Happy

Anyways, long discussion here and there but it is somewhat worrying that the message here is that "in order to be free of Toxic Masculinity, you need to get rid of gender altogether".

Like, it's toxic masculinity that is the problem. Or is all masculinity toxic?

People tend to attribute both assertive behavior, or being determined / goal-oriented as aspects of masculine persona. Not all "traditionally masculine" traits are negative, nor should they be male-exclusive, but the idea of dismissing ALL aspects of ANY gender seems a bit radical?

Then again, I've previously preached "if we dismissed all gender and we just thought of ourselves as people, we'd get over all the false gender expectations that keep
us from truly being ourselves or whatever". That appealed to me a bit more 2-3 years ago, now I just think the whole discussion is irrelevant for some reason.

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Anyways, I feel like both expression of sexual behavior and romantic relationship dynamics are partly based on "gender" concepts, and if we assume Crim is genderless, wouldn't that make the relationship of Fuchsia/Criminy less?

I kinda want them to be all over each other like Nique is over Abby Very Happy


Have you seen how cute Monique looked in the Gypsi Outfit? Pure Sugar.

The Problem is that People can be toxic. Man and Woman are here on the same Level.
If all People would get rid of Genders, they just would come up with something else to have a Reason to be bad to others.


Cmon Guys and Girls. He is a Bookworm. He is the Cliche of a Bookworm. Do we really exept that he acts so openly when it comes to sexuallity? I mean, he is a very delicat Flower after all. Pedro_Martini posted the Comic where he just says that.
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