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2011-10-09 Sisterhood 7: The Patriarchy
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Ronald



Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 3456

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: 2011-10-09 Sisterhood 7: The Patriarchy Reply with quote

Off-topic (or back on, I suppose), I found what might be Glossie's very first appearance:


http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=19

chirp chirp chirp

(saying it doesn't look much like her wouldn't be too compelling because this was, after all, eleven years ago; Slick and 'Nique also look rather different these days)
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 533
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, US

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, given circumstances lately, I've been looking back at this strip as a sign of things to come. Not the very valid issues it raises, but one specific exchange:

"Most people can't see the Patriarchy. They're too immersed. Until they are freed, they are agents of the system... colluders."

"Was I... am I... a colluder?"

"Everyone is. But you're awake now. You can see."

I've always been a bit put off by the idea that, when one is unaware of, or just not convinced of, a specific position, that one is a "colluder." No one's allowed to be honestly, sincerely mistaken. Disagreement or ignorance has to be in some way defined as actually morally evil. I've thought that when dealing with the fundamentalists of my own religion (and of others), I thought this when I first saw this... and, well, now I feel like it's taken on a new meaning.

In our current forum controversy, how people who are not of the "right kind" of Radical Feminists (specifically trans and trans-inclusive people) are treated is at issue. It seems to me to have become less of a debate between people who can all be assumed to be acting honestly, in good faith, and more--at least on the part of the TWERF/SWEFT side--of an attack on those who don't conform.

The whole assumption of people who aren't wholly convinced of one particular approach to feminism as being "agents of the system" and "colluders" would seem to be behind this approach. People who are already presumed to be "bad guys" don't deserve, I guess, to be argued with as people who can be sincerely mistaken, or intellectually honest, or whatever.

This disturbs me. It disturbs me, again, in countless other contexts with different issues and ideas. (The question of how far upbringing and culture and the like (through all of human history) can influence people of otherwise good will and intellectual honesty isn't something I regard as absolutely black and white, either. But then, I also believe in at least some version of Original Sin, so for me, we're all as human beings morally flawed, and we all must work to not look the other way when that still, small voice suggests to us that maybe society, things we've been taught, even things our religions have taught us, have issues we need to address and cruelties or injustices we need to look at more deeply. But that's not the same thing as assuming that everyone on the other side of something I believe in is already guilty before being proven innocent, or in the case of this kind of "agent of the system" and "colluder" thing, guilty with no chance of being proven innocent because by definition you're already guilty, end of story. Ugh.)
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 21298
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree. we seem to be in a world where everyone who doesn't agree with you is clearly the enemy, and must be attacked with full fury. our idiot-in-chief is a prime example of this (note that as far as he is concerned, even _contributing_ to the Democratic party turns a Republican into an Unreliable) - but he's just the peak of the wave, the build-up has been a long time coming.

and the thing that makes me really sad is, i don't see how we get out of it. what will it take to accept that just having a different viewpoint isn't actually evil? and that it's really unlikely that you are going to change people's minds by refusing to talk to them, and especially by refusing to listen to them.
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The Bass Weasel



Joined: 22 Mar 2014
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
what will it take to accept that just having a different viewpoint isn't actually evil? and that it's really unlikely that you are going to change people's minds by refusing to talk to them, and especially by refusing to listen to them.


Sadly, it's reached a stage today, where in some instances a "different viewpoint" actually IS evil, as in racism, antisemitism, endorsing torture and laughing off unbathed babies in cages, covered in lice.

Which is still no reason to not try and have a dialog. The greatest obstacle, unfortunately, is that thanks to propaganda, we have lost an objective reality on which to agree as a starting point. Often, no amount of scientific data, peer reviewed study, or even direct observation will sway some from a beloved narrative.
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Greyman



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bass Weasel wrote:
mouse wrote:
what will it take to accept that just having a different viewpoint isn't actually evil? and that it's really unlikely that you are going to change people's minds by refusing to talk to them, and especially by refusing to listen to them.
Sadly, it's reached a stage today, where in some instances a "different viewpoint" actually IS evil, as in racism, antisemitism, endorsing torture and laughing off unbathed babies in cages, covered in lice.
They aren't considered evil just because they are different. It is what they actually say and do.
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Zilla



Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole thing with the Patriarchy as The Matrix code is very relateable, as a trans woman.

Before I transitioned, I had no idea how much privilege I had. It really was invisible, but all around me. Even as someone who identified as a girl inside, I couldn't see all the forces at work, all the prejudices, all the microaggressions, some of which I was complicit in. Some of which cis girls are also complicit in. It's insidious.

That's why ignorance makes one a colluder. If you can't see the way the system is stacked, you tend to reinforce it. When you're aware of the system, you're less likely to empower it.

That's the message I get out of it, and my lived experience shows that too.
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 533
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, US

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zilla wrote:
That's why ignorance makes one a colluder. If you can't see the way the system is stacked, you tend to reinforce it. When you're aware of the system, you're less likely to empower it.


I can see that. I hope that Tat will realize that maybe there are levels to the Matrix and that perhaps just seeing one level doesn't mean he's seen all there is.

Hmm. A character (who already sees the messages around them that we've seen) suddenly seeing the anti-trans messages, or the anti-intersectional messages, could be a welcome development. I think we only saw some racial ones once.
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Zilla



Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChastMastr wrote:
Hmm. A character (who already sees the messages around them that we've seen) suddenly seeing the anti-trans messages, or the anti-intersectional messages, could be a welcome development. I think we only saw some racial ones once.

Brilliant.
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