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Fake Feminism?
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's been a long time since i took anthropology, and some things may have changed since then. but one of my professors told us there had been a study looking at how various work activities were gendered in different cultures, the question being to determine how much of things might be biologically driven versus culturally driven.

he said they found only two occupations that were exclusively male: big game hunting and deep sea fishing.

there were no occupations that were exclusively female.

so how men and women "act" is very much a function of culture, rather than biology. sure, there is biology involved in how members of each gender react to members of the other gender that they find sexually attractive, but again, how one acts (or even if one is allowed to act) on those feelings is very much determined by culture.,

culture is learned. what is learned can be unlearned.

treating men and women as equally human does not mean that men have to act like women (or vice versa), nor does it mean that all women must act the same. ideally (at least to my mind) it would mean we could each act as the person we are, without being constrained to fit into some culturally determined (stereotypical) role.

so yes, abolishing gender roles and stereotypes _would_ mean you would have to treat all people the same - as individual humans, rather than representatives of a gender.
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caimsen wrote:
Wouldnt that mean you would have to thread all People the same? I mean, we all react to a Woman a bit other than to a Man.


It means we have to treat people equally, not the same. Do you treat a kid the same as an adult? Do you treat someone who's giant compared to someone who's tiny? Of course not. The difference here is that you only see them as different, not inferior.

Caimsen wrote:
Because people react in a certain way by themself


Gender roles are a social construct. Sure, there is some biological differences between men and women. However those differences are too miniscule to consider when thinking about whether someone's capable of being a leader or not.

Caimsen wrote:
To abolish stereotyps would mean that everybody would have to act the same. Woman act different compared to man. There is a pattern in that. Thats why we have so many stereotyps, even if some are totaly false, some are in many cases true. With gender roles it is something simular. You will allways have a certain bahaviour for them. Nearly all act ether masculin or feminin, or in a simular way. It is rather rare that somebody acts different.


How would abolishing gender roles, which restrict how we behave to each other, mean that we all have to be the same? There's all kinds of differences in people that have nothing to do with their gender. If anything the way we express ourselves will diversify if we abolish gender roles.

Caimsen wrote:
Maybe in a higher position, where it is just about money and power. There mostly your willpower counts, but even then its not that simple.


This has little to do with gender roles and more about how people crave power in general. It doesn't help that capitalism is currently eating the world alive.


Last edited by Nobody Important on Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Yorick



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:

there were no occupations that were exclusively female.

my mother and yours as well as several others would perhaps differ on that point.

though that also depends on how one "defines" occupation.
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
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Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, US

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One could even believe that there is meaning (and difference) to genders and/or sexes on metaphysical/ontological levels, and still --- GASP --- treat people the way they want to be treated, whether it fits one's own metaphysics/ontology/etc. or not.
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Zilla



Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yorick wrote:
mouse wrote:

there were no occupations that were exclusively female.

my mother and yours as well as several others would perhaps differ on that point.

though that also depends on how one "defines" occupation.


Mouse is talking about anthropology, which is taking into account all cultures and customs across the whole world. It's saying that you can find an example of men doing every occupation, if you look in the right society.

...

Oh.

Now I get it. Nevermind. XD
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think they figured childbirth and breastfeeding were clearly biologically determined Very Happy .

but outside of that, (and i admit i didn't read the study, so i don't know how much they looked at this) there really aren't any aspects of childcare that men can't do. indeed, i believe that there are studies showing that children do best when their father is active in their lives.
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netsplit



Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yorick wrote:
mouse wrote:

there were no occupations that were exclusively female.

my mother and yours as well as several others would perhaps differ on that point.

though that also depends on how one "defines" occupation.


Squeezing the kid's watermelon head out is obviously the providence of one group alone (and holy crap can only guess but ouch!), however every other part of parenting can and is done by both genders.
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Inganni



Joined: 04 Oct 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

netsplit wrote:
Yorick wrote:
mouse wrote:

there were no occupations that were exclusively female.

my mother and yours as well as several others would perhaps differ on that point.

though that also depends on how one "defines" occupation.


Squeezing the kid's watermelon head out is obviously the providence of one group alone (and holy crap can only guess but ouch!), however every other part of parenting can and is done by both genders.



What might be more inclusive for this whole discussion. (Not just you netsplit, It was just easiest to quote you)

Is saying that people with vaginas for childbirth. After all transgender men can have kids too. Smile I think thats why people have started saying that maybe using 'female' as a descriptor is a bit iffy.
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i think they figured childbirth and breastfeeding were clearly biologically determined Very Happy .

which would be why it's largely males trying to regulate, control, and vilify those very things.
But not just males, which is perplexing. Why do some women hate other women's bodies so much that they never mind don't answer this
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netsplit



Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inganni wrote:
netsplit wrote:
Yorick wrote:
mouse wrote:

there were no occupations that were exclusively female.

my mother and yours as well as several others would perhaps differ on that point.

though that also depends on how one "defines" occupation.


Squeezing the kid's watermelon head out is obviously the providence of one group alone (and holy crap can only guess but ouch!), however every other part of parenting can and is done by both genders.



What might be more inclusive for this whole discussion. (Not just you netsplit, It was just easiest to quote you)

Is saying that people with vaginas for childbirth. After all transgender men can have kids too. Smile I think thats why people have started saying that maybe using 'female' as a descriptor is a bit iffy.


Good point on transgendered men. Thank you.
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Inganni



Joined: 04 Oct 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are quite welcome! A lot of transgender men out there get really erased in conversations about childbirth and it affects them too.

For example: Not being allowed to sterilize yourself if you want to when you have a uterus. It's ridiculous.
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