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NYPD whats going on here
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Funkentelechy



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1818

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The police department's policy on shooting at moving vehicles states: "Police officers shall not discharge their firearms at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle."


By the the book there really isn't a way to justify this shooting.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 21162
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
Yorick wrote:
One of the officers listed supposedly emptied two full magazines. the fucker stopped to reload. how in anyone's head under any circumstances is anything like this ever justifiable?

the NYPD should have their guns taken away. They've demonstrated an inability to know how and when to use them.


Someone with even a moderate degree of firearms proficiency can reload very quickly. It's not like he stopped for a two second breather to mull over what he was doing before resuming firing.


....maybe that would have been a good idea?
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Kilgore



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Kilgore wrote:
Yorick wrote:
One of the officers listed supposedly emptied two full magazines. the fucker stopped to reload. how in anyone's head under any circumstances is anything like this ever justifiable?

the NYPD should have their guns taken away. They've demonstrated an inability to know how and when to use them.


Someone with even a moderate degree of firearms proficiency can reload very quickly. It's not like he stopped for a two second breather to mull over what he was doing before resuming firing.


....maybe that would have been a good idea?


Obviously it would have been. My point was that if he was in the grip of a panic response the act of reloading wouldn't have forced a long enough pause to break it. It was a specific response to Yorik's assertion that the reload implies slow, deliberate action.
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CoolChristian



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what do people think about the commissioner being possibly suspended/fired? after all, this isn't the first time that something like this has happened, and he wasn't exactly overly strict then, either.

on the other hand, he seems to have criticized the officers very quickly, either because he's finally fed up, or because hes trying to save his own skin?
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Merc



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: crowbar in the kitchen Reply with quote

Marik wrote:
Fred once had this .. thing that he posted about split-second crisis circumstances. The psychology of the whole deal, why people react the way they do in things like this. I can't find it, but if someone can based off my super vague description of it, then I'm sure it would be all insightful and shit.


Are you by chance referring to the fight or flight principle? Also, a second article on the subject.
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John Doe



Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
Yorick wrote:
One of the officers listed supposedly emptied two full magazines. the fucker stopped to reload. how in anyone's head under any circumstances is anything like this ever justifiable?

the NYPD should have their guns taken away. They've demonstrated an inability to know how and when to use them.
Someone with even a moderate degree of firearms proficiency can reload very quickly. It's not like he stopped for a two second breather to mull over what he was doing before resuming firing.
I'm going to partially agree with this. Reloading doesn't take very long, but for a reasonably proficient marksman, it should not take you 30 shots to decide if you hit the passenger compartment of a car, say, 10 times (for comparison, I want you to take a fridge, put it on its side, find something to brace yourself on 50 yards from it, and see how many shots it takes you to put 10 holes in the door. Now, consider doing that for 30 minutes 3 times a week. Think you can get that number down to 10?). These fuckers need their guns taken away because they're a fucking menace until someone teaches them how to aim and how to lead. That's regardless of whether they should have fired or not.

Someone should definitely be fired here, and its whoever signed off on their training, because they weren't any where near done with it.

Quote:
What with the extreme dearth of information about what actually happened before the shooting started, any discussion of whether or not this was justified will almost certainly be an exercise in assumption and frustration. I'm reserving judgement.
I'll go with that, other than my previous comment.
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Funkentelechy



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The new details from two well-placed police sources involved in the probe of the Saturday shooting death of Sean Bell show that at key moments officers were out of contact with each other and unaware of the situation unfolding around them.

As an undercover detective opened fire on three men in a car, his partner was busy trying to solicit sex from a prostitute to make an arrest, according to the sources, while two other officers sat in their car, unaware of what was happening.

"The whole thing boils down to a lack of supervision, communication and tactics," one source told Newsday. "Everything went wrong. It was downhill from the start."
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Merc



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a follow-up that may enlighten us as to why the shots were fired. I'll bold the good parts for y'all.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/475600p-400034c.html

Quote:
The undercover cop who fired the opening salvo in a 50-shot barrage that felled a Queens man on his wedding day told his story yesterday for the first time.
The detective insisted he identified himself as a cop well before he fired on the car carrying Sean Bell and his buddies.

"This cop screamed, 'Police!' and he had his shield out," attorney Philip Karasyk told the Daily News.

The News is withholding the name of the Brooklyn-born detective to protect his safety and the undercover operations he has worked on.

The detective held his fire despite Bell clipping him with his Nissan Altima, said Karasyk, who refused to name his client, even as police sources confirmed his identity.

"Once the car hit him, he jumped to the side," Karasyk said.

But when the cop saw the man sitting in the passenger seat - whom police sources identified as Joseph Guzman - reach into his waistband, the officer fired the first of 11 rounds at the men.

Four other officers, believing they were being shot at, also opened up on the car, Karasyk said.
When the gunfire was over, Bell was dead and Guzman and another man, Trent Benefield, were badly wounded.

"The other officers believed the shots were coming from the vehicle," Karasyk said. "They only did so in this case because they were in mortal fear for their lives."

Queens District Attorney Richard Brown has vowed to get to the bottom of the Saturday morning shooting that has outraged black New Yorkers - and that Mayor Bloomberg said looked like "excessive force."

Karasyk, however, said the five cops involved in the shooting - none of whom ever fired his gun on the job before - had no qualms about telling their stories before a Queens grand jury.

"That's our offer to the prosecutors - to waive immunity," Karasyk said.

The lawyer's client is a Hispanic officer in his late 20s.

A 66-year-old relative told The News that the detective is a good cop.

"Only God knows what happened," he said. "Police never shoot for no reason. Maybe he's got a reason."

The Justice Department is monitoring the unfolding investigation, but Brooklyn U.S. Attorney Roslyn Mauskopf emphasized it is not independently collecting evidence or interviewing witnesses.

At an NAACP meeting in Queens last night, black leaders called for the feds to appoint a special prosecutor if Brown doesn't obtain an indictment.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said police were questioning a new witness. Sources said that witness was China Flores, who had told The News that a fourth man nearly jumped in Bell's car before the shooting.

Police are still searching for that fourth man, who is believed to have left the Kalua Cabaret in Jamaica, Queens, with the victims - and to have disappeared shortly before the shooting started. Police also believe that the mystery man may have been armed.

All five officers have been placed on paid leave and ordered to surrender their guns.

Life-long friends Guzman and Benefield took Bell out for a bachelor bash at the club - unaware that cops investigating drugs and prostitution were staking out the joint.

Two undercover detectives - Karasyk's client and a female officer - were inside. NYPD guidelines permitted them to have two drinks; Kelly said it wasn't yet known whether Karasyk's client was drinking because he hasn't been questioned pending the grand jury probe.

When Bell and his pals left at 4 a.m., Karasyk's client followed. Kelly conceded on Monday that it was unusual for an undercover officer to pursue suspects; normally, the undercover signals his colleagues to move in.

Karasyk said his client followed because he heard Guzman say outside the club that he was going to get a gun to settle a beef with another club patron.

Many in the African-American community believe there was a racial component to the shooting because Bell and Benefield are both black.

Detective Mike Oliver, who fired 31 shots, and Officer Mike Carey, who fired three times, are both white - as is Lt. Gerard Napoli, the supervising officer who did not fire his weapon. The two other officers who fired the remaining shots are both black. Their names have not been revealed.

Investigators have a mountain of evidence to go through, and there also are more than 50 people to interview, delaying the empaneling of the grand jury. If charges are brought, all the cops' names will come out.
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CoolChristian



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so pretty much, the police saw a black man reach into his waistband and assumed it was a gun and opened fire. i guess the other officers then firing makes more sense, if they actually thought that they were being fired upon. Seems like a repeat of a couple of other shootings that have happened in the past couple of years--a cop stereotypes and unarmed civilians end up dead.
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ashcraftthepirate



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 1035

PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Once the car hit him, he jumped to the side," Karasyk said.


Quote:
But when the cop saw the man sitting in the passenger seat - whom police sources identified as Joseph Guzman - reach into his waistband, the officer fired the first of 11 rounds at the men.


Odd that the cop was observant enough to notice the waistband of a man seated inside a moving car...

I'd be focused on... I dunno... Not getting hit.
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CTrees



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 3772

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you mean because you can't see someone's waistband while they're sitting in a vehicle unless it either has no doors (some jeeps, for instance) or you're higher than them? And because if you're on foot, you most likely won't be higher unless you're right next to the door? And because, having just hit something, the guy could've, oh, been trying to hold onto the seat to brace himself?
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a local ode to sean bell
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absoluthoyt



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it interesting that the Police are trying to perhaps claim there was a fourth person in the car that could have had a weapon. They've been searching the area as well and peoples homes for this mystery weapon they supposedly had in the car. How could they have gotten rid of it. For that matter considering what happened to everyone in the car how the fuck could there have been a 4th person? He would have been just as shot up as the other three. This has all the makings of really bad ending.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mystery Witness in Groom’s Shooting Is Found

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: December 1, 2006
Filed at 9:42 p.m. ET

NEW YORK (AP) -- Officers have raided at least one home, picked up the son of a clergyman for an unpaid ticket and scoured vacant lots with a leave-no-stone-unturned intensity akin to a manhunt in a murder case. But the search has nothing to do with a fugitive killer.

Instead, police are trying to locate a key witness -- and perhaps a missing gun -- in hopes of explaining why five police officers unleashed a 50-shot barrage that killed a man on his wedding day outside a strip club last week.

Police critics on Friday warned of a backlash: They claim the search has created a climate of fear in a community already outraged by the death of Sean Bell, 23, and the wounding of two other unarmed men who attended his bachelor party at the club.

They say police have concocted a ''phantom gunman'' in a desperate effort to show that officers were justified in opening fire.

''This kind of police conduct is frightening, and it serves as a chilling impact on those witnesses who want to come forward and simply tell what they saw, what they heard, so that justice can be served,'' said Charlie King, an attorney who said he represents several potential witnesses, including a man who could be the one intensely sought by police.

Police said clues gathered during a raid on a Queens home suggested the man, identified by his lawyer as 27-year-old Jean Nelson, was with three unarmed men early Nov. 25 moments before officers fired at their car.

The shooting has sparked outrage in the city and brought cries of racism. Bell was black; two of the officers are black, two are white and one is Hispanic.

Nelson, who was detained Thursday but released, saw the shooting, but he ''did not have a gun, nor was he in the car as police have suggested,'' King said.

A law enforcement official said Friday that investigators have taken statements from civilian witnesses that put a fourth man, possibly Nelson, near the car at the time of the shooting. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation was ongoing.

The first officer to shoot at Bell's car has claimed that he believed there was a gun in the car and that the men were retrieving it to settle a street dispute. No weapon was found, but police union officials have suggested a fourth man fled with one.

Police ''seem hellbent on finding a phantom gunman who didn't exist,'' King said.

Police picked up the son of the Rev. Lester Williams, the pastor who was to conduct Bell's funeral, for questioning at 6 a.m. Thursday, using an unpaid $25 ticket as an excuse, King said.

Williams later said that investigators ''definitely did strong-arm'' his son over why he visited the two wounded men, Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield, in the hospital.

The hospitalized survivors also have claimed through their lawyer that a fourth person was never involved. Benefield was in stable condition on Friday and Guzman in critical condition.

Shakeema Chavis, 25, knew Bell from high school and said she was disturbed by the police department's behavior in the search for witnesses in Jamaica, a notoriously crime-plagued neighborhood.

''They're just bullet-happy. They're just gun-happy,'' she said through tears. ''I think 99 percent of the black and Hispanic community would agree with me.''

In a statement, police officials insisted that their investigation was appropriate. And Mayor Michael Bloomberg, speaking on his weekly radio show, called some of the criticism unfair.

An unidentified undercover officer and four others -- identified as Detectives Mike Oliver, Mark Cooper and Paul Hedley and Officer Mike Carey -- have been placed on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of a grand jury investigation.

On Friday evening, mourners seated in the pews at the Community Church of Christ wept as a steady stream of guests walked up to the Bell's casket. The wake was to be followed by a funeral inside the same church where his wedding to Nicole Paultre was supposed to have taken place.
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Secret



Joined: 09 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Po-leez.
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