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ISRAEL
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mytton wrote:
Israelian?


My mistake, but hey english is my 2nd language, so i'm not doing so bad.
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: the allegory is not complete until burnt hay becomes nee Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Bart wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

Another fact i heard on the TV-news,
90% of the Lebanese casualties are civilian
25% of the Israelian casualties are civilian


One side is forced by convention and public relations to care about the fate of the haystacks that they are blowing apart with explosive munitions. But it can't be helped -- there's needles in there.

The other side makes no distinction between needles and hay. It need only point its rockets and guns at whatever is within reach.


I'm not sure i got your point. It seems Israel isn't really caring about what they hit, otherwise the percentage of civilian casualties would be a lot lower.
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Jinx



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of thoughts on those numbers . . .

The casualty numbers reported by the Lebonese / Hezbollah are suspect IMO. They have incentive to exaggerate the casualty figures, especially the civilian figures. Furthermore, even if the numbers of dead are, in fact, accurate, how many of them were civilian and how many were Hezbollah would be almost impossible to verify. They have reason to lie.


Israel warned the populace of souther Lebanon that they were going to attack, and urged civilians to leave. I hate to hear of civilian casualties, but I've got to wonder about people who were killed in an area that they knew would be attacked. I suspect that the Israeli population near the Lebanese border was, to some extent, evacuated. That could explain the lower civilian casualty rate in Israel.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10431
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I gotta agree... aside from the incentive to inflate numbers, distinguishing enemy from civilian when the enemy isn't wearing a uniform is problematic. I have no doubt there are civilian casualties, but I'm not sure I trust info about them coming from either side.

Though I am concerned with the two Red Cross ambulances and the UN observer post that have been bombed by Israel. You don't normally see a pissed off Kofi Annan, but he's pretty livid about his observers being shelled.

CNN wrote:
BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- The U.N. observers killed when an Israeli bomb hit their bunker in Lebanon Tuesday called an Israeli military liaison about 10 times in the six hours before they died to warn that aerial attacks were getting close to their position, a U.N. officer said.

After each call, the Israeli officer promised to have the bombing stopped, an officer at the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) base in Noqoura said.

Finally, an Israeli bomb exploded directly on the U.N. post near Khiyam, killing four U.N. observers from Austria, Finland, Canada and China, the U.N. officer said.

...

Annan issued a sharply worded statement Tuesday evening which said he was "shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting ... of a U.N. observer post in southern Lebanon." He called on Israel to conduct "a full investigation into this very disturbing incident."

"This coordinated artillery and aerial attack on a long established and clearly marked U.N. post at Khiyam occurred despite personal assurances given to me by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that U.N. positions would be spared Israeli fire," Annan said.

"Furthermore, General Alain Pelligrini, the U.N. force commander in south Lebanon, had been in repeated contact with Israeli officers throughout the day on Tuesday, stressing the need to protect that particular U.N. position from attack."

The timeline provided CNN by a U.N. officer in Lebanon showed the first bomb exploded about 200 yards from the U.N. outpost at 1:20 p.m. Tuesday, prompting the first call by the UNIFIL observers to their designated contact with the Israeli military. The officer said they were assured by the Israeli liaison that he would stop the attacks.

A series of about nine more bombs hit within 100 to 400 yards from the observers over the next several hours, with a call to the Israeli military following each explosion.

The U.N. base at Noqoura lost contact with the outpost at 7:40 p.m., apparently the time of the direct hit, the officer said.

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Amilam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't that facility really close to a confirmed Hezbollah bunker? There are pictures floating around the internet where you see the standing UN building, with a Hezbollah flag in plain view nearby. At any rate the US has accidentally hit the Chinese embassy which was much more removed from the fray, so while it's extremely regrettable, I think it was accidental.
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kame



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'm going to solve the middle-east question right here, so set your faces to stunned:

...


...



...


...


...

Oh fuck, you really wanted an answer. Hmmm ... perhaps a rousing rendition of "This land is your land, this land is my land?" No... okay, how about we remove everyone from the area whose primary influence in the decision making process stems from some kind of monotheistic religious belief? What do you mean there's hardly anyone left!

There is no quick fix for this. There has to be a devaluation of religion in the area, that's for sure. Yes, it's not all about religion, but religion is certainly one of the root cause. Not wishing for another's death simply because they worship the same god in a different way would be a great start.

There is a lot of blame here, to be sure. But this really is more of an issue of technology outpacing the ability to use it rationally. Religious wars are nothing new, the weapons are. And whereby annihalating a group of people used to be a rather tedious chore... it's much easier to kill a lot of people with a bomb than a spear.
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The Eye Of The Watcher



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amilam wrote:
Wasn't that facility really close to a confirmed Hezbollah bunker? There are pictures floating around the internet where you see the standing UN building, with a Hezbollah flag in plain view nearby. At any rate the US has accidentally hit the Chinese embassy which was much more removed from the fray, so while it's extremely regrettable, I think it was accidental.


It was a percision guided bomb. You can't miss with something like that. Anyway that bunker has been there for two decades. It was deliberate, hence the angry response of Kofi. Anyway it smell like USS Liberty All over again.

Also The US Navy still remembers that "accident" hence the reason why they had an officer right there with the israelis to make sure no more "accidents" happened.

Anyway Hezbollah is bascilly the governing body of southern lebanon.
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amilam wrote:
Wasn't that facility really close to a confirmed Hezbollah bunker? There are pictures floating around the internet where you see the standing UN building, with a Hezbollah flag in plain view nearby. At any rate the US has accidentally hit the Chinese embassy which was much more removed from the fray, so while it's extremely regrettable, I think it was accidental.


I'd really like to see that picture you mention. Besides, accidental ? They had been warned 6(!) times they were firing at a U.N post and then they can act surpised when they do hit it.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 16637
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's not clear to me what israel would gain by deliberately bombing a u.n. post - it does nothing but piss the u.n. off (and there's already plenty of people in the u.n. who don't like israel). so i'm inclined to think it was an accident.

and the one that hit the chinese embassy was a precision bomb as well. it's not a question of how well the bomb finds what you point it at - it's whether you have it pointed at the right place.
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Spanky



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: Rockville, MD

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Middle East solution? Nuke it clean and fill it all up with solar panels!
INFINITE ENERGY FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD!
Oh I kid I kid.
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Amilam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 922

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
Amilam wrote:
Wasn't that facility really close to a confirmed Hezbollah bunker? There are pictures floating around the internet where you see the standing UN building, with a Hezbollah flag in plain view nearby. At any rate the US has accidentally hit the Chinese embassy which was much more removed from the fray, so while it's extremely regrettable, I think it was accidental.


I'd really like to see that picture you mention. Besides, accidental ? They had been warned 6(!) times they were firing at a U.N post and then they can act surpised when they do hit it.


Here's the picture:


Unless you make the argument that the picture is doctored you would have to conceed that the two positions are awfully close together. Literally a stones throw away.

You say they were warned six times to stack the guilt of Israel, but seeing as how close these positions are together wouldn't you expect warnings? Wouldn't people be screaming if Israel attacked this position without a warning?

Finally, as Mouse said, precision bombs aren't perfect.
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Jinx



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't the UN evacuate their observers from Iraq prior to the US invasion?

Why would they leave their observers in a post that close to an obvious Hezbollah position? I'm not trying to blame the victims here; I'm just not clear of the rationales involved.

I thought Annan's use of the word "deliberate" was excessive. I cannot fathom why Israel would deliberately target a UN outpost. I'm open to explanations from either side of the argument. Most of it makes no sense to me.

Also, FTR, I don't understand the opposition by the US to an immediate cease-fire. I accept that a cease-fire is not enough, but why oppose it as an opening move?
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9193

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: neeeedles Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
Sam wrote:
Bart wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

Another fact i heard on the TV-news,
90% of the Lebanese casualties are civilian
25% of the Israelian casualties are civilian


One side is forced by convention and public relations to care about the fate of the haystacks that they are blowing apart with explosive munitions. But it can't be helped -- there's needles in there.

The other side makes no distinction between needles and hay. It need only point its rockets and guns at whatever is within reach.


I'm not sure i got your point. It seems Israel isn't really caring about what they hit, otherwise the percentage of civilian casualties would be a lot lower.


Um..

That ain't necessarily true. Even if Israel was playing this straight (doubtful) they'd still incur more of a percentage of civilian casualties as total than hezbollah.

Think about it: One side wears uniforms, the other largely does not. One side embeds its forces inside the populace and launches its rockets from cities. The other does not. One side is sending its forces openly towards the enemy, the other is sitting back and taking potshots.

"But it can't be helped" is tongue in cheek, but regardless, the side-by-side comparison of percentages is legitimately a terrible metric for judging Israel's intent.
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Uncle Taylorbell



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3191
Location: Northern England

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kame wrote:
Yes, it's not all about religion, but religion is certainly one of the root cause.


You are so fucking wrong it's unbelievable. What, you think Israel is shelling Lebanon because they ain't Jews? You think the rest of the MiddleEast hates Israel because they ain't Muslims?

Pick up a fucking history book sometime, man.
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Amilam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 922

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Taylorbell wrote:
kame wrote:
Yes, it's not all about religion, but religion is certainly one of the root cause.


You are so fucking wrong it's unbelievable. What, you think Israel is shelling Lebanon because they ain't Jews? You think the rest of the MiddleEast hates Israel because they ain't Muslims?

Pick up a fucking history book sometime, man.


Um I would agree that people talking about a religious World War are nuts, but he just said the religious tension in the state of the Middle East in general was a major factor, which is pretty obvious. Bland maybe, but still.


A link detailing Hezbollah repeatedly using U.N. positions to fire from:
here.

I think people should be careful to pick their fights. There is plenty to be upset about regarding Israels actions without maintaining they are intentionally attacking the U.N.
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