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would u sell ur soul?
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that parents distrust anyone teaching their kids something as personal as religion. It goes along with the fact that our society is much more individualistic than it has been in the past. We no longer have a villiage to raise a child.

And I would be in a rage if I found out a teacher did that to my kid even if I was a hardcore Christian because of the abuse implied.

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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
I suspect that parents distrust anyone teaching their kids something as personal as religion. It goes along with the fact that our society is much more individualistic than it has been in the past. We no longer have a villiage to raise a child.

And I would be in a rage if I found out a teacher did that to my kid even if I was a hardcore Christian because of the abuse implied.


this whole vein of the conversation assumes that the child is not enrolled in a religious institution, of course.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even in a religious institution, if the teacher is forcing his own rules on the students then he is still far out of line. The part that gets me is how he made the students read parts of the Bible to the class when they were bad. Can you imagine the walk of shame to the Bible? Not only is that an inept way of punishing someone, it leads to unhappy feelings when reading the Bible.

This teacher was in the wrong.

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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that doesn't really have anything to do with teaching religion, though. that's just bad teaching method.

walk of shame to the chalkboard for not doing your arithmetic homework? exact same approach, worthy of the exact same reproach.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People generally take religion much more seriously since it teaches personal habits instead of concrete knowledge (such as math). By making them do the walk of shame to the Bible, the teacher influenced how they view the Bible.

Not to mention it wasn't for missing homework, it was for not looking like a picture window while being forced to say the Lord's Prayer. This bad teaching example goes just a bit further than a math teacher. Either way, the teacher needed to be punish.

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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
People generally take religion much more seriously since it teaches personal habits instead of concrete knowledge (such as math). By making them do the walk of shame to the Bible, the teacher influenced how they view the Bible.

Not to mention it wasn't for missing homework, it was for not looking like a picture window while being forced to say the Lord's Prayer. This bad teaching example goes just a bit further than a math teacher. Either way, the teacher needed to be punish.


now -- wait a second. you're trying to argue both sides of the coin, here, in order to try and deny my point.

by stating that the teacher "went further" in the religion class, you are suggesting that the infraction during the lord's prayer was somehow middling in comparison to missing one's homework -- which is fine, in and of itself; just replace "missing homework" with "looking out the window". but if you don't like the comparison and yet cannot think of an instance where a teacher in some class other than religion used humiliation in retaliation for a similarly "minor" infraction, i believe you are mistaken.

so, again, i suggest that this is not specific to the teaching of the subject of religion.


however, in suggesting that the infraction in the religion class was not up-to-par with missing your math homework, you also seem to be suggesting that humiliation is somewhat acceptible if the infraction is severe enough. in this, you are directly arguing against your own assertion that People generally take religion much more seriously .

teachers are people and so a religion teacher might just 'upgrade' infractions to meet this higher standard and so, again, we have a comparable situation with humiliation used as retaliation in any other class, even without needing to reconfigure the respective infractions.

what's good for the goose is good for the godhead
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kame



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject: All bets are off. Reply with quote

If you live in a professed secular country, it is a reasonable expectation that you would not receive compulsory religious instruction within the public school system.

You send your child to a private school, then you get what you pay for.

As far as teaching methods go, different strokes for different folks. Every child has a way of learning (or not learning), and every teacher got their way to teach. Though a teacher who relies mainly on shame to drill instruction into their students is no teacher in my view.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps I didn't state myself well. "People take religion much more seriously" is about how much people ie parents are going to get pissed off when something goes wrong and religion is involved. Bad teaching methods are not exclusive to this one religious teacher but people are going to scream about it much louder.

And I wasn't suggesting that any infraction required humiliation. I was saying that not looking perfect during the Lord's Prayer is a lesser infraction and if missing your math homework doesn't require a shame process, neither does the Lord's Prayer infraction. I cannot think of a situation in a classroom where a shame method would be justified much less effective.

The difference seems to be in perspective. From an outside perspective, a teacher who isn't teaching a religion class should not view being distracted during the Lord's Prayer a major infraction, much less anything that requires a shame technique. By not teaching religion, the infraction becomes incredibly minor and even though the teacher was very religious, and therefore takes it very seriously, the fact that he was a teacher should remove any amplifying effect on the punishment of the "infraction."

And yes, any math teacher that took math homework that seriously needs punishing too.

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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:

this whole vein of the conversation assumes that the child is not enrolled in a religious institution, of course.


...because, in a religious institution, especially considering the 'religious' teachers they might employ, a student is never out of "religion class" regardless of the subject matter...in my experience.

considering religious institutions, and with regard to parents vs. "people" i don't think your distinction holds water -- neither from the perspective of parents necessarily shouting louder about religious instruction, nor about others involved in religious instruction being less invested in religious teachings and the seriousness thereof.

________

i'm really only pointing out that the disciplinary measure taken and any judgement of its appropriateness are independant of the topic at hand at the time the measure was taken.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
i'm really only pointing out that the disciplinary measure taken and any judgement of its appropriateness are independant of the topic at hand at the time the measure was taken.

Lasairfiona wrote:
People generally take religion much more seriously.

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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's only true if it's true.

people who don't take religion seriously at all don't actually take religion much more seriously.


besides that, you don't mean "people", you mean "parents" and, again, that really only pertains to students enrolled in a non-religious institution since instruction on "proper" religious behavior for any one, specific faith has no place in the public school system.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have yet to meet anyone who can take religion or leave it and none that would stay quiet in the case of kids. And since this situation involves kids, parents are going to be the ones I am specifically talking about though my experience shows that the generalization holds true.

Those that don't take religion seriously would take the idea of religion being forced down their throat or their kids throat pretty seriously especially at that age. At least, the people I have met act as such. I don't know of any study that measures how seriously people take religion.

And since it was never stated if the school was a religious one, I infered from the "FORCED" and the stated fact that the teacher wasn't teaching a religion class. Perhaps that can be clarified by filecore.

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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
And since it was never stated if the school was a religious one, I infered from the "FORCED" and the stated fact that the teacher wasn't teaching a religion class. Perhaps that can be clarified by filecore.


actually...

when i commented
Major Tom wrote:
this whole vein of the conversation assumes that the child is not enrolled in a religious institution, of course.


you replied:
Lasairfiona wrote:
Even in a religious institution...

...in effect, you did state that you believe your comments hold true in a "religious one".


and i have explained my take on the distinction between religious and public institutions with regard to your comments.
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Froggums



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
And since it was never stated if the school was a religious one, I infered from the "FORCED" and the stated fact that the teacher wasn't teaching a religion class. Perhaps that can be clarified by filecore.


It says specifically in his post that it was not a religion course (but it has been edited, so I dont know if the original included that). I am curious about whether it was a public or private school though. If it was a public school that I am outraged and the teacher should have been fired immediately. But if it is a religious private school- bad teaching methods aside, there is no reason the teacher should get in trouble for what was done.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

note also that he is in finland. i don't know that the finns have the same stance on seperation of church and state that we do.
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