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bush finally uses his veto
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Natashabi



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: Tejas

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DigitalVirtuoso wrote:
How would you feel about it? Would you give up an embryo if you could save 100 children?


If I was having invitro fertilization (which I would never do anyway) I would be more than happy to see the unused embryos go towards research that could save lives. What would I do with them all? Seems silly to waste something that could be so useful.

Waste not, Want not

(yeah, I know it's old, but it's still valid)
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
DigitalVirtuoso wrote:
How would you feel about it? Would you give up an embryo if you could save 100 children?


if i had more than i needed? absolutely.


and this, little mousey person, is why we all love you so very much. Smile
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Dro



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
Those who disagree needn't participate, but nor should they try to force everyone else to toe the line they draw.

There is no line at any point in human development when you can say a person becomes a person. It would have to be relatively arbitrary. The funny thing about arbitrary lines is that people disagree about where they go.


We all try to force others to toe various lines because of beliefs. These disagreements about arbitrariness can be so hard to solve, because they do involve belief. Not much room for comprimise when human life is involved.
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the point I'm making is they've already compromised.

STOP THE RESEARCH!!!!!

but by all means go ahead and destroy those embryo's you aren't using. Cuz it's not murder that way..... Oh wait.... Yes it is..... SHHHH! You're complicating things!!!!!!
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is why we all need to push for further research into cyborgs. if we could just replace these messy humans with cyborgs, we won't have all these moral issues.
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Natashabi



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DigitalVirtuoso wrote:
I find war to be an inevitable situation with the state of humanity, and I personally think we are in one of the most if not THE MOST humane war in the history of the world (Iraq part deux).


I want to point out to you the facts that there are too many innocent people being killed in this "war". They are people who did not ask to be bombed; that aren't part of evil military regimes.
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record Dro, you're being very polite in your arguments. I hope I haven't offended due to my differing opinion and all.

If I get angry about things sometimes it's just that. Getting angry at things and circumstances. I very rarely get angry at people.
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DigitalVirtuoso



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, name one war or large military conflict that was fought following the geneva convention? It is a terrible reality, but not one war even post geneva convention adheared to it.

I find it terrible and inhumane to subject these people to such, but when one side finds it A-OKAY with exploding themselves outside a daycare, or in a mall, or in a school bus, is that not more barbarous and inhuman? I don't think they give a rats arse about a piece of paper that tells them to play by certain rules. The fact is, we are fighting an unconventional war against an opponent who refuses to play by the "rules" aka geneva convention. I don't know about you, but I completely agree with using torture in the circumstance of saving innocent lives in times of war. I think the fear there is that it will get out of control.

Quote:
I want to point out to you the facts that there are too many innocent people being killed in this "war". They are people who did not ask to be bombed; that aren't part of evil military regimes.


I agree that too many innocent people are getting killed, but I think if we tallyed the numbers, the Foreign Militants are exponentially ahead.
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Last edited by DigitalVirtuoso on Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dro



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
For the record Dro, you're being very polite in your arguments. I hope I haven't offended due to my differing opinion and all.


I wouldn't say we have different opinions at all. I am exploring one for the sake of understanding.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Bush thinks that it is so wrong, why not get rid of fertility treatments too? It is the fertility treatments that are creating this controversy and these embryos. Why does he not have a problem with just destroying them while he has conniptions over research. Ya know, if he said that he would rather have a human destroyed than have them experimented on, I could actually see his point of view even if I don't agree with it.
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Natashabi



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DigitalVirtuoso wrote:
I find it terrible and inhumane to subject these people to such, but when one side finds it A-OKAY with exploding themselves outside a daycare, or in a mall, or in a school bus, is that not more barbarous and inhuman? I don't think they give a rats arse about a piece of paper that tells them to play by certain rules. The fact is, we are fighting an unconventional war against an opponent who refuses to play by the "rules" aka geneva convention. I don't know about you, but I completely agree with using torture in the circumstance of saving innocent lives in times of war. I think the fear there is that it will get out of control.


So, just because they act like barbarians gives us the right to do the same? From what I understand, we are trying to prove that we are a more civilized nation to show them what they should strive for but if we're going to break the Geneva Convention, what makes us any different than them?

If we want to set an example, we have to follow the rules.

Additionally, this has nothing to do with stem-cell research, so if you want to talk about it... make a thread!
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In war there is simply too much destructive force being unleashed to assure the safety of innocents. They've gotten better at it, but there will always be unecessary "collateral" damage.

The alternative, of course, is not fighting. Let's just let that regime commit genocide and go to sleep feeling comfortable and right not thinking about human beings we are morally culpable over because we "ALLOWED" the genocide.

Diplomacy is ideally the best approach but, alas, it doesn't always work.

I wish the world were peaceful too. I don't like the idea of killing people. I also rather don't like the idea of them killing me. Unfortunately, there are certain realities of life, and armed conflict is one of them. Ignoring those realities doesn't change them. It just puts you at greater risk.

Thus, if you must get into such a conflict it's in the world at large's best interest to keep an eye on the parties involved (something we've gotten quite good at in the information age). Accountability and the knowledge we will be held accountable for our actions may be the best single way to limit violence.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DigitalVirtuoso wrote:
Well, name one war or large military conflict that was fought following the geneva convention? It is a terrible reality, but not one war even post geneva convention adheared to it.

so you consider it humane not to even try?

DigitalVirtuoso wrote:
I don't know about you, but I completely agree with using torture in the circumstance of saving innocent lives in times of war.

so you are ok with torture - what, exactly, is your definition of "humane"?

for the record, i'll go with dictionary.com:

Quote:
hu·mane adj.

1. Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion: a humane judge.
2. Marked by an emphasis on humanistic values and concerns: a humane education.

Synonyms: humane, compassionate, humanitarian, merciful
These adjectives mean marked or motivated by concern with the alleviation of suffering: a humane physician; compassionate toward impoverished people; released the prisoner for humanitarian reasons; is merciful to the repentant.


can't quite fit torture, suicide bombing and the like into this definition - but these are what characterize what _you_ have called the "most humane" war ever fought.
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DigitalVirtuoso



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets jump a new thread instead of being Hijackers.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dude, this is sinfest - thread hijacking is more or less expected.
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