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3/27/07 - No
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
The panhandlers of american society are not the poor, the widows, and the orphans of jesus day. Those people are working 3 jobs trying to stay afloat in a society which has a "pull yousrelf up by the bootstraps" mentality. Therefore it makes more sense to donate to charities and such which help *those* people than giving money to random people on the street..


Generalization is BAD. How can you say such horrible things about... about people you don't even know. People you've never met. You talk about them all like they're worthless and that its their own damned fault, and then you pull this shit where you act like you care about the ones that do try... you take it back like its what you meant all along. I don't buy it. You can't tell by sight that someone really is trying for a job every day, and really does put the effort into making it on their own. You can't tell that as you walk past and they hold their hand out for something.

Your nasty little generalizations give you away. This bullshit where you say something utterly wrong and heartless, then back out of it with some sort of excuse is just rediculous. I don't buy it.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
The panhandlers of american society are not the poor, the widows, and the orphans of jesus day. Those people are working 3 jobs trying to stay afloat in a society which has a "pull yousrelf up by the bootstraps" mentality.

You cannot make these assertions. You are equating two categories of people that simply have nothing to do with one another. "The redheads of Jesus' day would live in Oregon in today's society." There is no reaction I can have other than "wtf?"

You certainly didn't get these comments from the Bible. It doesn't hint anything of the sort. It uses "widows and orphans" to refer to people who can't support themselves. That's all. It does not distinguish between productive and lazy widows. It does not distinguish between productive and lazy orphans. You are the one doing that.

Jesus does not tell you to discriminate in this fashion. He tells you to love your neighbor, not to love those neighbors who are productive. He tells you to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, visit the imprisoned. He tells you to fill every need you see. He does not tell you to fill only the needs of people who "deserve" their needs filled because they would get a job if they could.

MellowFish wrote:
Therefore it makes more sense to donate to charities and such which help *those* people than giving money to random people on the street.

"Sense"? What does "sense" have to do with anything? You are called to love everyone! You are not called to draw a line, and say "this lowly a person will I help, but no lower." You are creating a new category of the least of men, then declaring them not worth saving.

When Jesus singles out the least of men, it's because they need his help most of all.

This has to sink in, dude. Jesus values everyone, and you do not get to impose your shoddy human criteria over that.

MellowFish wrote:
Judging, btw, would be adopting the aforementioned mentality of people who are poor are only that way becuase they want to be. Saying that *some* people are that way is merely stating fact

I cannot find where you distinguish one case from the other. Are you saying that judging only some people isn't really judging... because it's only some people?

MellowFish wrote:
and acting on that act is not judging, its being shrewd, which is another thing Jesus said to be.

Are you refering to when he told the disciples to be shrewd about whose house they stayed in as they traveled and preached because he was sending them out vulnerable and with a very inflamatory message that will get them arrested and flogged if they aren't careful? Is that the shrewd you mean?

Or is it the parable of the shrewd manager, in which Jesus basically says you should spend your money freely, on helping people, because the money is worthless in the life to come, but the having helped people is not? 'Cause that's the kind of shrewd I am talking about, but not so much like the shrewd you are talking about.
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happena my handle? wrote:
As to society's "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality, I'm not sure that Christianity is meant to be compatible with that.


This is true enough to bear repeating because they are not compatible.

As a Christian you help those in need simply because they are in need.

Horatio Alger must die.
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Secret



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's been dead for a hundred and eight years. Razz
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Arc Tempest



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Literal interpretation = Bad
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even jesus did not heal people who did not want to get better. He actually asked one guy if he wanted to be healed, and for many others, it was the people who sought help from him that he praised for their faith. This is not to say I should set up shop and wait for the bums to come to me, it is merely saying that my money should go to people who want to get better, instead of alcoholics and druggies who just want to keep their old habits a bit longer on my dime. In my city, the shelter I spoke of offers drug rehab programs, counseling, education, and help egtting an honest and long term job. Doesn't it seem that my money would be better spent with them than with a panhandler on the street?
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2433

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The annoyances of your avoiding questions, changing the subject, and making baseless assertions (seriously, where the hell do you get things like Jesus didn't heal those who didn't want it?) are pretty well balanced by the vast amusement I'm enjoying from the fact that you are favoring a logical/pragmatic argument over Biblical directive, apparently without realizing it.

You're not a Christian Fundie so much as a random-assortment-of-opinions-I've-decided-are-sacrosanct Fundie.
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MellowFish



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that point has been made by yourself and others before. however, I do this mostly out of an attempt to not have the quote "blind faith" that many people are disgusted with. I try to think about what I am believing and what it means in my daily life, and this is what I have come up with. So ridicule away, but I am not here to please you, just to throw out my two cents like everyone else on this forum.
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Twister87
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're at it again.
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Fnorder
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mellow, sorry for calling you a bastard. No irony here: I sincerely apologize. As it seems, I've judged you, and I shouldn't have Wink

It's really great that you do something to help people in need - that’s exactly what charity's all about.

The thing that got me so furious however was not that you said you wouldn't give money, but the explanation for it.

Generalizing that "bums are lazy" is really a bad idea. Even if your father says so. Because, believe me I've had a lot experience with such people as well, it's usually not about "wanting to work" - most of those people are poor souls who've lived through something really terrible in their lives, who've seen their whole life collapse, and broke under this pressure. As a reaction to what has happened, they retreated from normal life - and this couldn't be called a willful decision as much as for a schizophrenic to have delusions. Yes, they are theoretically capable of getting a job, and living in better conditions - but they've been burned so hard by the horrors they've been through, that they don't realize, don't care, sometimes say they don't want to - but that doesn't count as laziness.

I bet that when Jesus expelled the demons from that possessed girl, she also wasn't saying she wants to be exorcised. And if you allow me to take that part of the Scriptures also as a metaphor for psychological problems, then indeed, the smartest carpenter from Nazareth did help those in similar problems to those I'm talking about.

So I agree that giving them food, and helping organizations, rather than handing over some cash is a better solution. But for the sake of your own soul - have some pity and understanding for the problems of the people around you, do not label them as "lazy" and go away not seeing any problem, thinking it's their own fault.
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MsFrisby



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you ever tried to get a job where you put "none" in the address space? "None" in the phone # space? When you have no money for interview or work clothes? No place to wash those clothes, even if you managed to get them? No regular place to take a bath and get a shave?

What about those people who did do all the right things at first, college, job, family, and have their entire family killed in an accident and therefore, nothing is worth the effort anymore because all that effort couldn't keep their loved ones safe?
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
my money should go to people who want to get better, instead of alcoholics and druggies who just want to keep their old habits a bit longer on my dime.

I don't know what it is about fundies but they don't understand mental illness at all. You aren't capable of wanting or fixing or even having willpower when your brain isn't functioning as well as it should. This even applies to people who aren't clinically mentally ill. Sometimes, you just aren't capable and blaming someone for that is like blaming a one armed man for not operating a car properly because you are supposed to have two hands on the wheel.
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Smartbomb



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MsFrisby wrote:
Have you ever tried to get a job where you put "none" in the address space? "None" in the phone # space? When you have no money for interview or work clothes? No place to wash those clothes, even if you managed to get them? No regular place to take a bath and get a shave?


Don't forget about the tracks on your arm and the fact that you're likely a tad addled by drugs or mental illness or both.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smartbomb wrote:
Don't forget about the tracks on your arm and the fact that you're likely a tad addled by drugs or mental illness or both.

No no, even non-druggie/mentally ill people who are homeless for one reason or another have a hard time getting back into the job market because of a lack of address, etc. It doesn't matter how they got there, getting back to "normal" is nearly impossible without a home.
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After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael
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Mr_Moustache



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
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Location: The thing in itself that is Will

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They can work "illegal", right? Mostly those bosses tend not to care much. And you dont have to pay taxes.


And i dont mean in negative or something. Just that having no adress doesnt mean you can get a job (or being underage or something, for that matter)
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