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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4893
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trampstamp wrote:
The fact humans can write poetry does not balance out our resource wasting, homicidal tendencies, or perhaps I misunderstand your reference, in which case I apologise. From what I understand, my response is; we are still a useless species, regardless of art, or anything of the sort.


Comparing humans to other animals is like comparing apples to oranges, you may have a preference but we are so different in every aspect you can't simply can't argue merits objectively.

Instead of laughing it like Lil' Evil I often find myself sighing "oh humans," simply because we are capable of so much that nothing else we have encountered can do. We have the potential for so much good, so many wonderful things... and yet so often we just end up fucking everything up.

But then are those failures grounds to dismiss us as a "useless species"? Fuck no. Certainly not this early in the game when we are still so young.
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Keign



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We haven't even successfully destroyed one entire planet yet! Personally I am disappointed in my species.
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6282

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trampstamp wrote:
Yes, animals kill each other, for reasons; territory, food, mates, and if they are group animals, for their pack, this is done for them to live, yet animals are not sadistic and cruel, they simply kill for survival.
Humans have this odd habit of wanting to kill each other for no reasons or for loosely put together reasons that really have no other purpose rather than destroying something. My example: the multiple homicides in an Amish school.

The fact humans can write poetry does not balance out our resource wasting, homicidal tendencies, or perhaps I misunderstand your reference, in which case I apologise. From what I understand, my response is; we are still a useless species, regardless of art, or anything of the sort.


But animals, kill each other not necessarily "as" readily as you might like to want us to believe what you say about it; for is it not also true that the butterfly has not and does not seek to kill other butterflies and, does this not indicate that since one never sees butterflies kill each other in acts of self-preservation, as you claim animals do for survival, that those animals do not then kill at all? Why do you feel it is nessecary to indicate the point of view that says that animals must be cruel when this is not true at all? Humans you see, cannot see things that are not within there predefined expectations of what they have seen before, so when you say that animals are violent you are saying you see they're actions as violent and murderous; even if you seek to attempt a defense for the reason of this murder which you call "survival"; when they are not, but that is a part of what you expect to see because of anthropomorphimistic tendencies on the part of humans, who are unique in this act, unlike any animal we have ever witnessed. My example: would a gopher rape and emotionally abuse a vole? Somehow I think not.

We must not forget the butterfly: for it is a prescious teacher of the natural which is good, and cannot be argued. If you think animals cannot write poetry then you obviously have never owned a dolphin.
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Trampstamp



Joined: 05 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]But animals, kill each other not necessarily "as" readily as you might like to want us to believe what you say about it; for is it not also true that the butterfly has not and does not seek to kill other butterflies and, does this not indicate that since one never sees butterflies kill each other in acts of self-preservation, as you claim animals do for survival, that those animals do not then kill at all? Why do you feel it is nessecary to indicate the point of view that says that animals must be cruel when this is not true at all? Humans you see, cannot see things that are not within there predefined expectations of what they have seen before, so when you say that animals are violent you are saying you see they're actions as violent and murderous; even if you seek to attempt a defense for the reason of this murder which you call "survival"; when they are not, but that is a part of what you expect to see because of anthropomorphimistic tendencies on the part of humans, who are unique in this act, unlike any animal we have ever witnessed. My example: would a gopher rape and emotionally abuse a vole? Somehow I think not.

We must not forget the butterfly: for it is a prescious teacher of the natural which is good, and cannot be argued. If you think animals cannot write poetry then you obviously have never owned a dolphin.[/quote]

Okay…to begin my first reaction was:...what?

I said ANIMALS ARE NOT cruel. I said humans can be compared to animals and with such a comparison are revealed to "suck"

I never said animals kill each other readily, they kill if threatened, for survival.

I never called animals violent, I said they did what they needed to do to live in their respective ecosystems.

I never said animals are cruel, that fact you pulled that out of there indicates severe misunderstanding on your part, or I wrote out my point rather poorly, or some sort of combination of the two.

With the fact I have no idea how you pulled such ridiculous ideas out of what I believe I stated very clearly, I have no idea how to respond. I can tell you made a valid point towards…something you believe I said, but to how you managed to twist what I said around I have nothing to say. I can't possibly answer without this becoming a rather irritating mess.

I never said anything that would lead to the analogy that a "gopher would rape a vole." Please explain how you got something that needed such a sentence to give emphasis to a point.

Also, what does a dolphin have to do with poetry?

I never said animals can't write poetry, they may in thier own way. (Just to clear that up)
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6282

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trampstamp wrote:
I said ANIMALS ARE NOT cruel. I said humans can be compared to animals and with such a comparison are revealed to "suck"

And, yet you claim they kill one another; so which is it? I know I would think that someone eating my head was cruel, despite what reasons he thought he was doing it for. Or are some animals worth less than other animals and that makes it okay for THOSE animals to keep living and other ones to die horrible deaths having their heads eaten even thought they didn't do anything to deserve it except eat grass or termites or whatever?

Quote:
I never said animals kill each other readily, they kill if threatened, for survival.

And yet if you place a thousand butterfly's in a room with a single flower that cannot feed even FIVE total butterfly's they do not turn on one another like humans do and would (example: the Donner Party and the movie Alive). So obviously they don't kill each other for survival, as you would like to believe.

Quote:
I never called animals violent, I said they did what they needed to do to live in their respective ecosystems.

And, yet you say they kill one another if they feel like they maybe threatened? Sounds pretty violent to me. Jesus didn't even hit people when they threatened him and said they were going to do bad things to him, like put him in jail for not paying taxes to Caesar. Explain that.

Quote:
I can tell you made a valid point towards something you believe I said.

Thank you.

Quote:
I never said anything that would lead to the analogy that a "gopher would rape a vole." Please explain how you got something that needed such a sentence to give emphasis to a point.

You claim animals are violent for survival of the species but that, does not explain how they don't rape one another in order to make more of the species (which is required for survival!), when it is obvious the other animal doesn't want to have sex at all.

So much for violence in response to survival.

Quote:
I never said animals can't write poetry, they may in thier own way. (Just to clear that up)


Thank you, Im sorry for my harsh words. I was wrong to think you didn't think animals could write poetry. I guess I misestimated you because I was a little too raped up in what I was arguing about that I didn't see what it was you were saying. I do that sometimes! Laughing
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAPPED up.

Sorry. lol!
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

itchin fer a-fightin, lol, indeed
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Trampstamp



Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Death Star

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And, yet you claim they kill one another; so which is it?


Okay, let us dissect this, shall we.
Killing something is not always cruel. If an animal, let us use a wolf, had rabies, then its pack will kill it. That is not cruel, that is needed for survival otherwise the rabid one poses a threat. Killing for survival is not necessarily violence; killing in general is not always going to be violent.
Your opinion seems to be based on major over generalization.
Mercy killing is not cruel, which is a certain respect what killing off a rabid member of the pack would be. (To continue the example.)


Quote:
I never said animals kill each other readily, they kill if threatened, for survival.

Quote:
And yet if you place a thousand butterfly's in a room with a single flower that cannot feed even FIVE total butterfly's they do not turn on one another like humans do and would (example: the Donner Party and the movie Alive). So obviously they don't kill each other for survival, as you would like to believe.


You seem to have a thing for the butterflies. Smile
The butterflies would just die, after a lot of pushing and shoving for the flower, but they would die.
Animals (insects are part of the Fauna classification) that have multiple aggressors, such as insects and rodents, tend to not be inclined to violence towards one another because of the fact they are more inclined by evolution to use the “flight reflex” rather than the “fight reflex”

Quote:
I never called animals violent, I said they did what they needed to do to live in their respective ecosystems.

Quote:
And, yet you say they kill one another if they feel like they maybe threatened? Sounds pretty violent to me. Jesus didn't even hit people when they threatened him and said they were going to do bad things to him, like put him in jail for not paying taxes to Caesar. Explain that.


This discussion does not need to have religion dragged into it, do not degrade it like that. Seriously...it will end up really messy, cause judging by what you said, we do not agree on religious matters, for example the divinity of Christ.
Humans, with our specific evolution to the top of the animal hierarchy, have an almost never faltering and advanced choice between "flight or fight" resulting in free will , also being threatened with Jail is not the same as being attacked by something rabid. (To keep up my earlier example).

Quote:
I can tell you made a valid point towards something you believe I said.

Quote:
Thank you.

You are welcome.

Quote:
I never said anything that would lead to the analogy that a "gopher would rape a vole." Please explain how you got something that needed such a sentence to give emphasis to a point.

Quote:
You claim animals are violent for survival of the species but that, does not explain how they don't rape one another in order to make more of the species (which is required for survival!), when it is obvious the other animal doesn't want to have sex at all.

So much for violence in response to survival.


Violence is sometimes needed for survival. Not always, "flight" works too. You are anthropomorphizing animals too much, keep in mind, on the rape thing, that animal mating rituals and similar are much different from humans. (Rape is for pleasure for the one who commits the rape. Humans and dolphins are the only animals that have sex for pleasure.) Therefore, that rape thing really makes no sense, but I can see what you are trying to say.
Killing is a solid part of survival, like eating, sleeping, etc; it is not always connected with violence, as you seem to think. Killing threats and problems leads to stronger evolution. However if you see killing as violent, then yes violence is part of survival, it always has been. It is needed especially for omnivores and carnivores.
Humans default is the tendency to be violent, either harming another or killing another with no reason, with other animals it is only when nessissary for survival. That was my main point.

Quote:
I never said animals could not write poetry, they may in their own way. (Just to clear that up)

Quote:
Thank you, Im sorry for my harsh words. I was wrong to think you didn't think animals could write poetry. I guess I misestimated you because I was a little too raped up in what I was arguing about that I didn't see what it was you were saying. I do that sometimes! Laughing


Completely understandable. No hard feelings, glad we got that cleared up. Smile

In addition, it is "wrapped up." No biggie, but I am an editor, and it is habit.

As a last note Nathan, think everyone else in this forum is tired of our little argument? Wink

(sorry for any mistakes, I have been up for roughly 24 hours now and and rather drowsy)
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4893
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point 1:
Trampstamp wrote:
Killing for survival is not necessarily violence; killing in general is not always going to be violent.


Killing in nature requires violence, I don't think wolves are going to smother each other with pillows or use lethal injection, that is a purely human conceit.

Point 2:
Trampstamp wrote:
This discussion does not need to have religion dragged into it, do not degrade it like that. Seriously...it will end up really messy, cause judging by what you said, we do not agree on religious matters, for example the divinity of Christ.


Religion and divinity don't factor into the argument you artard. Nathan didn't even mention divinity, in fact you could replace his example with Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. and it would still be valid. The point is that while nature is red in tooth and claw some humans have created a philosophy by the name of pacifism, something that goes against the natural order by using neither fight nor flight.

Point 3:
Trampstamp wrote:
other animals it is only when nessissary for survival.


You may be an editor but you may want a spell checker.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the proof is in the reader
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Secret



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 5429

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Humans are animals.

In other news, humans suck compared to a standard of perfection that we created, so SHUT UP ALL OF YOU
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you're mouthy without the deserving-to-be bits
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Trampstamp



Joined: 05 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
Point 1:
Trampstamp wrote:
Killing for survival is not necessarily violence; killing in general is not always going to be violent.


Killing in nature requires violence, I don't think wolves are going to smother each other with pillows or use lethal injection, that is a purely human conceit.

Point 2:
Trampstamp wrote:
This discussion does not need to have religion dragged into it, do not degrade it like that. Seriously...it will end up really messy, cause judging by what you said, we do not agree on religious matters, for example the divinity of Christ.


Religion and divinity don't factor into the argument you artard. Nathan didn't even mention divinity, in fact you could replace his example with Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. and it would still be valid. The point is that while nature is red in tooth and claw some humans have created a philosophy by the name of pacifism, something that goes against the natural order by using neither fight nor flight.

Point 3:
Trampstamp wrote:
other animals it is only when nessissary for survival.


You may be an editor but you may want a spell checker.


Point one: In that sense, yes it is deemed as violence, but only from our human perspective. The point I seem to have failed to make is animals other than humans are not inclined to violence, at least not the same as humans. An animal snapping another animal’s neck is much different that cutting someone alive open and strangling them with their own entrails as some humans feel they must do. So, no wolves and such are not going to smother one another, but they will not go on mindless, killing sprees like humans.

Point Two: Yes Jesus can be switched; however, I was saying keep Jesus and Christianity out of the argument. Jesus and Christianity, when dealing with Christ's actions are inseparable, and Christianity is based of the divinity of Christ. Anyways, I am not dealing with Christianity or anything of the sort.

In addition, I know what pacifism is, I live by it, study the teachings, and try to live my life by it's guidelines, so I understand it completely, so please do not preach it to me, because no matter your intention, that is how it came out in your words.
Thank you however for pointing out I had not mentioned pacifism in my argument.
M. Ghandi, and others may have acted upon the principal of pacifism, however, they are a small amount compared to billions of people that still are the most worthless, blood lusting, dirty, resource sucking, animal species on the planet.

Point Three: Oh so very sorry, I will be sure to spell check, just for you. My point is still there, regardless of spelling errors.
As well as your pointing it out such is not an argument nor a point but a rather rude attack.
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That_Guy



Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: A place

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
Point 1:
Killing in nature requires violence, I don't think wolves are going to smother each other with pillows or use lethal injection, that is a purely human conceit.

Point 2:
Religion and divinity don't factor into the argument you artard. Nathan didn't even mention divinity, in fact you could replace his example with Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. and it would still be valid. The point is that while nature is red in tooth and claw some humans have created a philosophy by the name of pacifism, something that goes against the natural order by using neither fight nor flight.



Here are the facts:

Animals kill eachother for survival. Sometimes they don't, thats fine too.
Humans kill for whatever wierd impulses and desires they have.
We do way more harm then good in this world.

It's all natural.

You can be morons and disagree, but you have probably done your share of damage.

Some people make an effort and try to do as little harm as possible.Good for them, the only way to stop pointless (being the main point) violence is to fill a rocket ship with every human alive and launch them into the sun.

Then the animals can do whatever the hell they want and it will also prevent any more of this stupid arguing.
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Last edited by That_Guy on Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Secret



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 5429

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
you're mouthy without the deserving-to-be bits


Quip with actual wit, please.
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