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Trampstamp



Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Death Star

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That_Guy wrote:


Here are the facts:

Animals kill eachother for survival.
Humans kill for whatever wierd impulses and desires they have.
We do way more harm then good in this world.

It's all natural.

You can be morons and disagree, but you have probably done your share of damage.

Some people make an effort and try to do as little harm as possible.Good for them, the only way to stop pointless (being the main point) violence is to fill a rocket ship with every human alive and launch them into the sun.

Then the animals can do whatever the hell they want and it will also prevent any more of this stupid arguing.


Just to end this, as I have no energy to continue this pointless argument, as I'm sure I will never agree with nathan.

In short: I agree with That_Guy.

The rocket and the sun idea seems like a decent solution.

Now, farewell, as I need to sleep before I go to work.

Lovely chatting with you all.
See you soon.
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4925
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trampstamp wrote:
The rocket and the sun idea seems like a decent solution.


Does that mean you two are volunteering?
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Trampstamp



Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Death Star

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:


Does that mean you two are volunteering?


Only if you go first, Darling.
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That_Guy



Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: A place

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
Trampstamp wrote:
The rocket and the sun idea seems like a decent solution.


Does that mean you two are volunteering?

If it means saving the planet, sure, why not?
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Keign



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 2073
Location: The Blue Nowhere

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That_Guy wrote:

Here are the facts:

Animals kill each other for survival. Sometimes they don't, thats fine too.

Oh they'll sometimes kill each other for reasons that aren't crucial to their existence, over something like territory, but I'll give ya that as I don't care.

Quote:
Humans kill for whatever weird impulses and desires they have.

Which are just the same impulses and desires as those of animals, developed to a greater degree.

Quote:
We do way more harm then good in this world.

'Harm?' How do you mean? We do stuff that might cause other species to die off? I hate that shit. Just because we have a fucking influence on the planet doesn't make it negative. Sure it's different but I thought bigotry had been reduced enough that mankind could now acknowledge that different from what we're with isn't 'bad'. It's different.
At the same time, how do you define 'good'? When we try to maintain the ecosystem as it currently exists? Yeah, let's try to make sure that the world stops being dynamic, let's make it static and stagnant, that'll be real good for its continued existence.

Quote:
It's all natural.

No shit! So why the hell are you whining about it?

Quote:
You can be morons and disagree, but you have probably done your share of damage.

I have done no 'damage' to the planet. Worst-case scenario? I've killed a few things that were once alive. That's not damage, it's NATURE. Things die, other things cause it, and then more things come and take the place of the fallen.

Quote:
Some people make an effort and try to do as little harm as possible.Good for them, the only way to stop pointless (being the main point) violence is to fill a rocket ship with every human alive and launch them into the sun.

That's idiotic. That would eliminate humans, sure. But then we'd just be 'harming' the sun, by the primitive 'change is bad' definition that you seem to employ.

Quote:
Then the animals can do whatever the hell they want and it will also prevent any more of this stupid arguing.

Yes, they can. But wait. We are animals. So why can't we do whatever the hell WE want? Because we understand that it causes other things to die? Oh heaven forbid, we must become suicidal in our quest to not harm other animals. Seriously, that makes sense to you?
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6282

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"I'm not a stupid man, Im not an intelligent man, I am an honest man." -Me


No.

You're not.
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That_Guy



Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: A place

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you seem to love arguing, but unfortunately your no good at it.

You would think with out "highly developed" brains as you put it would know better then to kill another thing.

As much as we may be animals, we can do plenty to survive without killing a animal, i.e vegetarians.

I love meat though but thats part of the way some people live, at least thier not dying for no reason unlike what trophy hunters do.

and we can't "harm the sun" you moron, the earth isnt even close to a quarter of its size, and the sun will kill us before we can touch it.

edit:Nathan, you know nothing about me so don't even start.
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bullshit. I can smell something festering from a mile away.
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That_Guy



Joined: 08 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nathan wrote:
Bullshit. I can smell something festering from a mile away.

Are you still here? Go play video games or something.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17432
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was going to respond calmly and logically, but then you started to say really stupid things. i suspect your view of animalkind (and humankind) is grounded not in reality, but in some rainbow-colored dreamworld in which all of nature is good and pure, and humans are intrinsically evil.
Trampstamp wrote:
If an animal, let us use a wolf, had rabies, then its pack will kill it.

do you have any sort of citation for this actually being observed in the wild? i have never heard of any documented instance in which a wolf pack killed a sick member - such members are usually just left to starve, or driven off. Since rabies is spread by saliva, and rabid animals are quite willing to bite, i would expect this sort of mercy-killing to be strongly selected against, since the wolves who attack the sick animal would be extremely likely to become infected themselves. and how does a wolf diagnose rabies, as opposed to something else that might cause erratic behavior and foaming at the mouth, like eating something toxic? to suggest wolves have the ability and energy to perform mercy killings is just stupid.

and as to your suggestion that animals are not cruel - i take it you have never known a cat. or seen what one does with a baby bird, or a mouse, or any other little thing it catches. now, i don't know that their play is consciously cruel - but i suspect if their victims could speak, they would consider it cruel. animals _do_ kill things that they don't need to kill, and that are no threat to them. i once saw some extremely disturbing footage of a pod of killer whales attacking and killing a baby grey whale, despite the efforts of its mother to protect it. after it was dead, they ate its tongue - that was all. for the amount of food they got, they could have killed something smaller much more easily. apparently, they like the taste of baby whale tongue, and they are willing to go to a lot of trouble to get it.

Trampstamp wrote:

Animals (insects are part of the Fauna classification) that have multiple aggressors, such as insects and rodents, tend to not be inclined to violence towards one another because of the fact they are more inclined by evolution to use the “flight reflex” rather than the “fight reflex”

to say nothing of the fact that they aren't particularly equipped with the necessary equipment to kill each other. how, exactly, would a butterfly kill _anything_, even another butterfly? rodents will kill each other, when crowded or stressed - people attempting to breed them are quite aware of problems when new or stressed mothers eat their own young.

quote="Trampstamp"]
Humans, with our specific evolution to the top of the animal hierarchy, have an almost never faltering and advanced choice between "flight or fight" resulting in free will , also being threatened with Jail is not the same as being attacked by something rabid. (To keep up my earlier example).[/quote]
ok, i thought for a second i could make something of this, but it makes absolutely no sense. are you trying to say that violence is only necessary when confronted with a rabid beast? what about your basic non-rabid beast - your lion, your tiger, your bear - ever seen how fast a grizzly can run? so you think flight is always a better choice than fight?

you seem to feel animals doing what they have to do - i presume, in the course of killing prey - are not really 'violent'. how about humans hunting for prey - is that ok?

Trampstamp wrote:
(Rape is for pleasure for the one who commits the rape. Humans and dolphins are the only animals that have sex for pleasure.)


a) rape is more about power than pleasure.
b) ever hear of bonobos? they certainly appear to enjoy sex - as do at least some other great apes. they certainly use it for a lot more than just procreation.
c) how do you know no other animals enjoy sex? who are you to say what they enjoy or don't enjoy? you really think rabbits breed like - well, rabbits - just out of mindless instinct? a lot of mammals appear to be able to take pleasure in physical things - how do you know sex isn't one of them?

and if they _don't_ experience pleasure, then one could make the argument that all non-human (and dolphin) sex is rape, since it is about the power of the male to make the female do something she doesn't necessary want to do.

Trampstamp wrote:
Humans default is the tendency to be violent, either harming another or killing another with no reason, with other animals it is only when nessissary for survival. That was my main point.

again - proof? i seem to recall from my anthropology classes that hunter-gather societies, considered the most ancient, are often quite peaceable. and most societies punish killing "for no reason" - aka murder. and even most murders are done for a reason - because of sexual jealousy (i.e., acquiring or keeping a mate), for gain (in this society, money==food, so killing for money could be seen as killing to get food) - or out of fear that the other person will harm you. i don't really know the statistics on this one, but i will bet that the number of times one person walks up to another and kills them for no reason whatsoever are relatively few. even in things like gang shootings, where innocent bystanders are killed - the killer may not have had a reason for killing the person they killed, but they had a specific intent in trying to kill someone.

and your comment earlier, to the effect that humanity is generally on a downward slide - oh, come on. do you really feel the human race now is worse than when slavery was widely practiced? do you feel it was better when, say, the easter islanders were cutting down all the trees on their island than now, when we are attempting to understand and mitigate our impact on the environment? were we really better when the first native americans killed off the horses, camels, mammoths and i can't remember what else that were living in the americas when they first came over, or now, when we are trying to protect endangered species? better during the spanish inquisition, or now that we are fighting for religious tolerance? better when we hung people as witches, or killed jews in pogroms, because we thought they were spreading diseases - or now, when people are donating time and money to fight disease around the world?


Trampstamp wrote:
(sorry for any mistakes, I have been up for roughly 24 hours now and and rather drowsy)


why do strange people keep coming here, making ludicrous arguments, and then excusing their idiocy because they've been up so long? don't come around bothering people you don't know when you are too tired to make sense!

and by the way - given your low opinion of the human race, i trust you will be removing yourself from the planet asap.
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That_Guy wrote:
As much as we may be animals, we can do plenty to survive without killing a animal, i.e vegetarians.


So if I understand you killing plants, which everybody seems to forget are living things, is all well and good but killing animals is a no-no?

That_Guy wrote:
and we can't "harm the sun" you moron, the earth isnt even close to a quarter of its size, and the sun will kill us before we can touch it.


I just quoted this to bask in the sheer stupidity. I gotta ask how does the size of the Earth come into play from anything he said?
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YenTheFirst



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 2620
Location: Slightly less than crazy.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That_Guy wrote:

As much as we may be animals, we can do plenty to survive without killing a animal, i.e vegetarians.


oh, so we have to be nice to the cute fluffy aminals, but it's fine to kill vegetables for our own means, eh?
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Keign



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That_Guy wrote:
Well you seem to love arguing, but unfortunately your no good at it.

I just joined the conversation. You haven't seen me 'argue' to be able to judge yet.

Quote:
You would think with out "highly developed" brains as you put it would know better then to kill another thing.

Why? Do you have some reason that killing another thing to survive is worse than not?

Quote:
As much as we may be animals, we can do plenty to survive without killing a animal, i.e vegetarians.

Vegetarians just seem to think for some incomprehensible reason that killing plants is somehow 'better' than killing animals. All are alive, so what's supposed to make one more acceptable than the other?

Quote:
I love meat though but thats part of the way some people live, at least they're not dying for no reason unlike what trophy hunters do.

Trophy hunters die for no reason? Oh wait, you mean that the animals they hunt die for no reason. But that's simply not true. Those animals die for the amusement of the hunters, to keep them in good spirits. And being happy is a good thing. You're going to have to provide some kind of evidence that their deaths somehow have a negative effect on the existence of the planet, because so far you just seem to think that animals shouldn't die, and you have no apparent reason to think it's negative.


Quote:
and we can't "harm the sun" you moron, the earth isnt even close to a quarter of its size, and the sun will kill us before we can touch it.

By flying an object large enough to contain the entire human race into the sun you would cause a collision with the sun, having effects that neither you or I are likely to be able to accurately predict, though perhaps a bored physicist has done the math. I didn't say that we'd be alive to land on the surface and start killing animals or something, dumbfuck. Sending something that large at the sun is bound to have some kind of an effect, that's all.
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6282

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not if they're loaded into a space canon and fired one at a time into it, moron.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That_Guy wrote:
You would think with out "highly developed" brains as you put it would know better then to kill another thing.

so you would let tramp's rabid wolves run loose, rather than kill them? what about smallpox and other pathogens - they all should live, in preference to humans?

That_Guy wrote:
As much as we may be animals, we can do plenty to survive without killing a animal, i.e vegetarians.

so you think the only way we harm other animals is to kill them directly? you think any hunting and killing of animals is necessarily harmful?


That_Guy wrote:
I love meat though but thats part of the way some people live, at least thier not dying for no reason unlike what trophy hunters do.
- oh, ok, killing animals is ok, as long as you eat them, or otherwise make use of their deaths. so where does human existence become necessarily evil, since it all seems to start with the violence thing?

but don't bother with me - you were about to shoot yourself into the sun. take tramp with you - the world will _definitely_ be a better place.
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