welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

15th December 2007 - A Beautiful Disaster
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10878
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:


There is the problem. You think god has a plan. Free will cannot be possible in a pre-determined future. Unless that future is determined by the individual, not god. You can't possibly agree with anything I'm saying if you don't believe in free will.


God also cannot be possible with free will. He knows.
So whatever we do, God already knew what we were going to do.

Also, free will requires determinism.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pytheus
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Pytheus wrote:


There is the problem. You think god has a plan. Free will cannot be possible in a pre-determined future. Unless that future is determined by the individual, not god. You can't possibly agree with anything I'm saying if you don't believe in free will.


God also cannot be possible with free will. He knows.
So whatever we do, God already knew what we were going to do.

Also, free will requires determinism.


Knowing what happens and doing something to control what happens is two different things. Yes he knows what your going to do but he doesn't tell you what to do. He gave us free will to determine our own fates. Thats his gift to us, or curse if you see it that way. He doesn't help anyone unless he is asked to, when we are willing to let him help or give guidance. Whats the point of prayer if he is already in control of your life?
Back to top
Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10682

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Lord Pythey us...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
YenTheFirst



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 2620
Location: Slightly less than crazy.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:

God also cannot be possible with free will. He knows.
So whatever we do, God already knew what we were going to do.

You can choose to eat a hamburger, God knows this, and everything that would follow because of it.
You can choose not to eat a hamburger, God knows this, and everything that would follow because of it.

Logical quandary solved.

Snorri wrote:

Also, free will requires determinism.


eh? Your statement contains a seeming contradiction. If the universe was deterministic, then free will is effectively non-existent, as every action one performs is the direct result of their past.
_________________
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY DEMONS"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10878
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YenTheFirst wrote:
Snorri wrote:

God also cannot be possible with free will. He knows.
So whatever we do, God already knew what we were going to do.

You can choose to eat a hamburger, God knows this, and everything that would follow because of it.
You can choose not to eat a hamburger, God knows this, and everything that would follow because of it.

Logical quandary solved.

Not in the slighest. You can choose to either eat the hamburger or not, but God already knows what you're going to choose. So your choice is already determined.
There are 2 choices to make, but God already knows which one you will take. How is that free will? I mean, there is no possibility you're going to choose the other option.

Quote:


Snorri wrote:

Also, free will requires determinism.


eh? Your statement contains a seeming contradiction. If the universe was deterministic, then free will is effectively non-existent, as every action one performs is the direct result of their past.

Yeah I mistated it. Free will is inconsistent with indeterminism.
Aren't all your actions determined by your hopes, dreams, experiences and character? If they aren't, you're effectively saying it's all just random occurances. And how can you judge someone for something that occured randomly?
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10359
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeD CHiKn wrote:
The thing about reincarnation I dont get is the population is always increasing, where are all the extra souls coming from? Or are souls being watered down and reincarnated in 2 bodies?


Duh:

_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com Now in book form: http://amzn.to/14E6OFy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10359
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
YenTheFirst wrote:
Snorri wrote:

God also cannot be possible with free will. He knows.
So whatever we do, God already knew what we were going to do.

You can choose to eat a hamburger, God knows this, and everything that would follow because of it.
You can choose not to eat a hamburger, God knows this, and everything that would follow because of it.

Logical quandary solved.

Not in the slighest. You can choose to either eat the hamburger or not, but God already knows what you're going to choose. So your choice is already determined.
There are 2 choices to make, but God already knows which one you will take. How is that free will? I mean, there is no possibility you're going to choose the other option.


One of the possible outcomes of quantum entanglement is that free will is an illusion, it only seems free because we do not know the outcome of everything that follows. More and more I believe this. I mean, we are just chemical reactions after all. I think all perceptions of "randomness" result from our inability to fully calculate outcomes. So maybe God's just really, really good at math.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com Now in book form: http://amzn.to/14E6OFy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Pytheus
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if the furture is fixed then traveling to the past can't alter the future. You wouldn't be able to change a individuals choice.

To me the furture isn't set on a fixed path but branches into endless possible paths. Your choice lead down a different fork in the branch. Its why its difficult for fortune tellers to be accurate cause they can only tell you what happens if you follow your current path. But god can see all possiblities.
Back to top
Azmoten



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2211
Location: St. Louis

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:
Well if the furture is fixed then traveling to the past can't alter the future. You wouldn't be able to change a individuals choice.


Unless you were MEANT to travel to the past and so the way the future has already turned out is with your time traveling escapades taken into account!
_________________
"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life."
-Solid Jackson (From Jingo, by Terry Pratchett)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pytheus
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azmoten wrote:
Pytheus wrote:
Well if the furture is fixed then traveling to the past can't alter the future. You wouldn't be able to change a individuals choice.


Unless you were MEANT to travel to the past and so the way the future has already turned out is with your time traveling escapades taken into account!


Now we are getting into Paradox and Alternate time lines. Do you go into the a past that you have already altered? What about the time line before you altered it?
Back to top
DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10223
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time travel only makes me think of one thing


"Have you seen this boy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10878
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:
Well if the furture is fixed then traveling to the past can't alter the future. You wouldn't be able to change a individuals choice.


Uhm....yeah but then again you can't travel to the past anyway.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pytheus
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Pytheus wrote:
Well if the furture is fixed then traveling to the past can't alter the future. You wouldn't be able to change a individuals choice.


Uhm....yeah but then again you can't travel to the past anyway.


Well thats true but it doesn't mean its not possible or that we will not be able to in the future. I watched a cool Nova Program that featured a scientist that was using light tunnels and shooting particals that in theory would time travel. I forget the theory behind why or how it works but it was an interesting idea. I think his name was Washington Brown, I;ll have to look it up later to confirm it. But the point being is we do have theories and studies going on that may make time travel in the distant future possible.
Back to top
Azmoten



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2211
Location: St. Louis

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we ever unlocked the mystery of time traveler, wouldn't we see these time travelers scurrying about?
_________________
"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life."
-Solid Jackson (From Jingo, by Terry Pratchett)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10878
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azmoten wrote:
If we ever unlocked the mystery of time traveler, wouldn't we see these time travelers scurrying about?


Only if it would be available for commercial use.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 5 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group