welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

15th December 2007 - A Beautiful Disaster
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Pytheus
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azmoten wrote:
If we ever unlocked the mystery of time traveler, wouldn't we see these time travelers scurrying about?


On the show I watch the scientist said that time travel to the past may only be possible upto the point when a time travel machine was invented. Again I forgot the explaination behind this.

Edit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Mallett

Ronald Mallett Is the guy I saw. Dunno why that other name came to mind. Anyways, just using him as an example of people researching such things.
Back to top
Secret



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 5429

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:
Fatalism is so boring. I don't know how you manage.


In exactly the same manner I would otherwise, with the occasional exception of internet arguments.

Quote:
The hugely overrated Christian apologist C.S. Lewis wrote that even God is subject to the principle of non-contradiction; therefore he could not have created a world in which freedom meant only one possible option. Just throwing it out there. I guess it depends on what a person means when they say God is omnipotent.


If God is subject to anything, he is not omnipotent. If he is not omnipotent, he could not have created the universe (or else is not God at commonly thought.) If the universe had to be created in a certain way, well, that's a whole separate set of unbacked beliefs.

Quote:
Also (in response to some of the ideas in the other thread), I find it curious that people consider the potential for evil more significant than the potential for good. If God created free will, why should it matter *more* that we can choose evil than the opposite alternative? I don't get it.


It contradicts the idea of a truly benevolent god.

Pytheus wrote:
Indeed. I can explain them. Defending them is different.


You're in an argument. You're supposed to actually respond to legitimate attacks on your points!

Quote:
Then what are you expecting in a defense? Can't defend speculation.


...logical reasoning?

Quote:
There is the problem. You think god has a plan.


I'm an athiest.

Quote:
You can't possibly agree with anything I'm saying if you don't believe in free will.


That in no way affects the validity of my arguments.
_________________
rm wrote:
the grail is patient.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1080
Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:
Azmoten wrote:
If we ever unlocked the mystery of time traveler, wouldn't we see these time travelers scurrying about?


On the show I watch the scientist said that time travel to the past may only be possible upto the point when a time travel machine was invented. Again I forgot the explaination behind this.

Edit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Mallett

Ronald Mallett Is the guy I saw. Dunno why that other name came to mind. Anyways, just using him as an example of people researching such things.


yeah, I've seen it too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10878
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
Pytheus wrote:
Azmoten wrote:
If we ever unlocked the mystery of time traveler, wouldn't we see these time travelers scurrying about?


On the show I watch the scientist said that time travel to the past may only be possible upto the point when a time travel machine was invented. Again I forgot the explaination behind this.

Edit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Mallett

Ronald Mallett Is the guy I saw. Dunno why that other name came to mind. Anyways, just using him as an example of people researching such things.


yeah, I've seen it too.


I'm in love with surfthechannel btw.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1080
Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

me too
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pytheus
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
You can't possibly agree with anything I'm saying if you don't believe in free will.


That in no way affects the validity of my arguments.


Well it does mine. My beliefs are based on the fact that free will exists. If you don't believe in free will then how could you possibly see my ideas as valid? You are arguing against and idea you have prejudged by your own beliefs.

If I felt you were keeping a more open mind then it would be different, but your combative behavior makes me think otherwise. You say I need to defend my ideas since this is an argument, but I didn't start one and I choose not to humor you. I was just putting an idea out on the table for people to think about. What your conclusion is makes no difference to me, I have no need to convince others I'm right or wrong. I don't even know if I'm right, its just an idea to throw in the hat full of many other ideas.

I like to play devil's advocate and think outside the box. I ask the questions that may seem silly but it helps me be creative. I'll ask what if god actually has limitations or weaknesses, what would they be. And I could create a story form that. Thats all I consider this as... stories. I create my own characters which if I ever have time from family and work I would like to write down the stories. Idea gathering helps me evolve these stories so that its not some simple plot, its a more believable dynamic world with lots of back history.

Also i don't under stand how you can't believe in free will and be atheist. Do you believe everything we do is instinctual? How do you see things, help me understand where you are coming from on this.
Back to top
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17125
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the thing is, you throw out these idea without giving us any sense of how you arrive at them. (and you are fighting back from confusing us initially by making it appear that your ideas were coming from some religious texts). if you really want people to take them seriously enough to allow them to provoke their own ideas.

i mean, i could say that i believe cats created the universe, and that they now control all our actions through telepathy. if i leave it at that, i'm a bit of a crackpot. if i want anyone to seriously consider it, i need to provide some evidence, or at least logical thought process (like pointing out that most of the galaxy is fairly although not completely dark, perfectly suited for cat visual accuity; counting up the number of small scurrying creatures there are, perfectly designed to entertain cats; and how, even when you can't see the cat, you just _know_ they are staring at you, wanting dinner/to be let out/to be let in/to drive you nuts. and how they generally succeed, even though your brain is bigger than their whole body, almost, so you really ought to have the advantage).
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pytheus
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
Pytheus wrote:
Azmoten wrote:
If we ever unlocked the mystery of time traveler, wouldn't we see these time travelers scurrying about?


On the show I watch the scientist said that time travel to the past may only be possible upto the point when a time travel machine was invented. Again I forgot the explaination behind this.

Edit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Mallett

Ronald Mallett Is the guy I saw. Dunno why that other name came to mind. Anyways, just using him as an example of people researching such things.


yeah, I've seen it too.


Thats not the one I saw. The guy is new Orleans is a dumb ass. I've seen those "time machines" In occult catalogs along side meditation pyramids and Alien communication devices. LOL Guess they were just exploring all angles of the subject in that film.
Back to top
Pytheus
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
the thing is, you throw out these idea without giving us any sense of how you arrive at them. (and you are fighting back from confusing us initially by making it appear that your ideas were coming from some religious texts). if you really want people to take them seriously enough to allow them to provoke their own ideas.

i mean, i could say that i believe cats created the universe, and that they now control all our actions through telepathy. if i leave it at that, i'm a bit of a crackpot. if i want anyone to seriously consider it, i need to provide some evidence, or at least logical thought process (like pointing out that most of the galaxy is fairly although not completely dark, perfectly suited for cat visual accuity; counting up the number of small scurrying creatures there are, perfectly designed to entertain cats; and how, even when you can't see the cat, you just _know_ they are staring at you, wanting dinner/to be let out/to be let in/to drive you nuts. and how they generally succeed, even though your brain is bigger than their whole body, almost, so you really ought to have the advantage).


Well I didn't imply any religious texts in this thread. Just an idea based around free will and how people can define evil much differently depending on culture. There is a culturally accepted idea of evil but its not an absolute since it changes as we evolve our sense of "fairness". And how people we would define as evil didn't see themselves that way. So evil is based on perception and is easily changed. Evil is only an idea, can a idea be real if its always being redefined? So I suppose evil isn't a working of the universe, only something WE came up with.

My ideas iare usually "what ifs". Maybe you expect me to work with logical reasoning to come towards a conclusion. But I come up with a conclusion and work myself backward. I say what if, and work out how it may be. It may sound like a stupid thing to do but physicist do it all the time. They come up with a theory and then afterwards work out the math to prove it. Like Hawkins is trying to prove his theory on black holes and has been working on it for two years now, last I saw the special on him. Sometimes I'm wrong and it comes to a dead end. Sorry but I don't have all the answers so I can't give you all the logical reasoning you want.
Back to top
zeezee



Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 4409
Location: saint louis

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
the thing is, you throw out these idea without giving us any sense of how you arrive at them. (and you are fighting back from confusing us initially by making it appear that your ideas were coming from some religious texts). if you really want people to take them seriously enough to allow them to provoke their own ideas.

i mean, i could say that i believe cats created the universe, and that they now control all our actions through telepathy. if i leave it at that, i'm a bit of a crackpot. if i want anyone to seriously consider it, i need to provide some evidence, or at least logical thought process (like pointing out that most of the galaxy is fairly although not completely dark, perfectly suited for cat visual accuity; counting up the number of small scurrying creatures there are, perfectly designed to entertain cats; and how, even when you can't see the cat, you just _know_ they are staring at you, wanting dinner/to be let out/to be let in/to drive you nuts. and how they generally succeed, even though your brain is bigger than their whole body, almost, so you really ought to have the advantage).

all hail feline creationism!

this is a religion I can embrace...

_________________
dogs have owners
cats have staff

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Pytheus
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeezee wrote:

all hail feline creationism!

this is a religion I can embrace...


Its Mice, not cats. And the answer to everything is 42. Nuff said.
Back to top
Vox Raucus



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 1252
Location: At the Hundredth Meridian

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secret wrote:
If God is subject to anything, he is not omnipotent. If he is not omnipotent, he could not have created the universe (or else is not God at commonly thought.) If the universe had to be created in a certain way, well, that's a whole separate set of unbacked beliefs.


Firstly, I had offered up Lewis' perspective as a way of dealing with the tension - one that I'm not entirely convinced of. I think it does push back at the validity of certain ideas of omnipotence, though. Why should omnipotence mean the ability to do the absurd or self-contradictory?

Secondly, every conception of God subjects him to a myriad of ideas. Even you subject the idea of God to omnipotence. Belief in God requires articulation in a manner that we can understand, which inevitably fails because (and here I agree with you) God cannot truly be subject to the human mind. Ancient theologians like Dionysius and Plotinus refused to attribute even existence to God, because God is beyond the human conception of existence.

Quote:
It contradicts the idea of a truly benevolent god.


True. Theodicy attacks theology, not the existence of God as such. It shows that theology has had difficulty articulating divine reality for humanity (understandable, given its subject) and points out where it needs to improve.

Personally, I think theology needs towards more functional definitions of omnipotence, goodness and benevolence, in recognition that they human conceptions and as such are under God rather than over him.
_________________
The cat's indifferent or he's just furious, it seems that he's never neither
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10223
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secret wrote:


I'm an athiest.



Didnt you just celebrate hannukah?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
zeezee



Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 4409
Location: saint louis

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeD CHiKn wrote:
Secret wrote:

I'm an athiest.

Didnt you just celebrate hannukah?

TRUTH: religious holidays that offers loot always trump atheist beliefs.
_________________
dogs have owners
cats have staff

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
LD!



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1139
Location: Just west of the Atlantic

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeezee wrote:

atheist beliefs.


Laughing Laughing Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 6 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group