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15th December 2007 - A Beautiful Disaster
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4925
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then of course there are always the Holideists, those who seek to be like their one God, who created and celebrates all the holidays of all the different faiths, just because he likes taking a great many days off.
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10227
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeezee wrote:
DeD CHiKn wrote:
Secret wrote:

I'm an athiest.

Didnt you just celebrate hannukah?

TRUTH: religious holidays that offers loot always trump atheist beliefs.


I like the use of the word loot.
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ZigZag



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 399

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Loot" is on the 2nd place of my personal "The Top 3 English Words"-list
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whats the #1?
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zeezee



Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 4409
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZigZag wrote:
"Loot" is on the 2nd place of my personal "The Top 3 English Words"-list

what are the other two? i desperately need to know...
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ZigZag



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 399

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy

#1 is "cheese"

#3 is "weed"

Notice that all 3 words have a letter twice and back-to-back?
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pot head.
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Vox Raucus



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZigZag wrote:
Very Happy Very Happy

#1 is "cheese"

#3 is "weed"

Notice that all 3 words have a letter twice and back-to-back?


Indeed.
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Secret



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:
Secret wrote:
That in no way affects the validity of my arguments.


Well it does mine. My beliefs are based on the fact that free will exists. If you don't believe in free will then how could you possibly see my ideas as valid?


I don't. But free will has been assumed thusfar and therefore what I believe has nothing to do with this argument.

Vox Raucus wrote:
Why should omnipotence mean the ability to do the absurd or self-contradictory?


Because if omnipotence is the power to create a system as well as manipulate it (as must be the case if we presume God to be the creator), then any sort of system can be created - including ones that reconcile concepts we view as contradictory.

Don't be a universe bigot.

Quote:
Belief in God requires articulation in a manner that we can understand, which inevitably fails because God cannot truly be subject to the human mind

...

God as such.


I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing. God is this thing which we can't possibly define, or disprove, or in fact know anything about?

Quote:
Personally, I think theology needs towards more functional definitions of omnipotence, goodness and benevolence, in recognition that they human conceptions and as such are under God rather than over him.


Again, you seem to be leaving nothing to think of.

DeD CHiKn wrote:
Didnt you just celebrate hannukah?


I was raised Jewish and I haven't abandoned everything associated with that. I've just stopped believing in the religion it's attached to.

Admittedly, that does make it hard to sit through High Holidays services.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject: can god make a rock so big he can't carve a penis out of it? Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
You can't possibly agree with anything I'm saying if you don't believe in free will.


That in no way affects the validity of my arguments.


Well it does mine. My beliefs are based on the fact that free will exists. If you don't believe in free will then how could you possibly see my ideas as valid? You are arguing against and idea you have prejudged by your own beliefs.

1) You clearly do not know what the word 'validity' means. It's probably not entirely your fault, but you should look it up before you argue with someone over whether something can be valid.

2) All new ideas are "prejudged by [our] own beliefs." It is a much more effective and useful system than simply accepting everything as true without "prejudging."

Pytheus, on page 6, wrote:
You say I need to defend my ideas since this is an argument, but I didn't start one and I choose not to humor you.

Pytheus, on page 2, wrote:
The argument is fate verse free will.


Pytheus wrote:
I was just putting an idea out on the table for people to think about. What your conclusion is makes no difference to me, I have no need to convince others I'm right or wrong. I don't even know if I'm right, its just an idea to throw in the hat full of many other ideas.

Lets say I put out the idea that Mountain Dew is God. Are you going to think about it? Are you going to wrestle with how and whether it can be true, and what significance that has upon our lives? I sure as hell hope not, because it's just plain stupid. Most ideas are a waste of time. If you haven't bothered to actually think through your idea, and can't explain any reason whatsoever why it should be taken seriously, then your idea is almost certainly one of those that is a waste of time.

Pytheus wrote:
I like to play devil's advocate and think outside the box.

Do you really think that "God created a rock, we make a sculpture of a penis out of it." is outside the box?

Pytheus wrote:
I ask the questions that may seem silly but it helps me be creative. I'll ask what if god actually has limitations or weaknesses, what would they be.

"What if God has limitations?" is not a silly question.

"Maybe even though God created everything, including us, and everything we encounter, and everything that affects us, and knows exactly how it effects us, we still came up with the idea of evil instead of Him." is not merely "silly," but flat-out idiotic, and not even a question, anyway.

Pytheus wrote:
Also i don't under stand how you can't believe in free will and be atheist. Do you believe everything we do is instinctual? How do you see things, help me understand where you are coming from on this.

This, more than anything else in your post, makes it clear that the things you are saying are haphazard and poorly thought out. How can you claim to think outside the box and yet assume that determinism must arise from religious faith?

Especially because you've got it all completely backwards! Determinism is a far more natural and reasoned belief than Free Will. Determinism is Cause and Effect. Free Will is Mysticism. Determinism is Science. Free Will is Faith.

Describe for me an event whose outcome did not rely on previous events. Name for me a choice you have made that was uncaused by the situation you were in. To say that our "choices" were predetermined is simply to note that we behave in the same way as everything else in the universe. It is those advocating Free Will who are making an outrageous claim.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2446

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secret wrote:
Vox Raucus wrote:
Why should omnipotence mean the ability to do the absurd or self-contradictory?


Because if omnipotence is the power to create a system as well as manipulate it (as must be the case if we presume God to be the creator), then any sort of system can be created - including ones that reconcile concepts we view as contradictory.

Don't be a universe bigot.

I think you kinda missed the thrust of the question. He asked, "why A?" and you answered, "if A (as it must be if we presume A), then A."
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Pytheus
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'll try answer your final question Sojobo. I'll give you my brother. He isn't too bright when it comes to computers. He doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes as well. He'll buy the wrong computer part for example, without consulting me first. I'll bitch him out for it and he claims he learned his lesson and will consult me before buying anything like that again. Then he does the same thing. If you say everything we do is based on past events. Why does he not seem to learn?

We could say we do things based on past events. But that doesn't prevent us from making the wrong choices, even though past events should make us learn to make the right choices. So we can make choices contrary to what lessons we learned in the past. Best example I have at the moment.

As far as my "argument" with secret. I was trying to say that he already had a bias against the idea and therefor any explanation I gave, I felt, will only be shot down cause the fundamental component of the idea was not acceptable to him. I don't expect him to simply accept it to be true. I fully expect him not to believe anything I put forward. So arguing is futile and a waste of time.

Ideas aren't a waste of time. Not every idea needs a explaination to go with it. Ideas are meant to make us think and explore. Is Mountain Dew god? Of course we think about it, just momentarily cause its quick to come to the conclusion thats its a silly idea. But we did actually think about it no matter the length in time we've done it.

An idea can be presented and left for people to come to their own conclusions. Not everyone is going to think the same way and come to the same conclusions. I'll call this Creative Thinking. There is to much talk about logical thinking, when the right answers may not seem logical to our minds, esp when it comes to subjects like god.

Found a quote I like
Quote:
Remember that practical ideas very often come from silly, impractical, impossible ones. By permitting yourself to think outside the boundaries of ordinary, normal thought, brilliant new solutions can arise. Some "wild" ideas turn out to be practical, too.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2446

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:
... If you say everything we do is based on past events. Why does he not seem to learn?

We could say we do things based on past events. But that doesn't prevent us from making the wrong choices, even though past events should make us learn to make the right choices. So we can make choices contrary to what lessons we learned in the past. Best example I have at the moment.

You are completely missing the point. I'm not talking about learning. Every decision your brother makes is based on who he is. He is who he is because of genetics and upbringing and history and diet and humidity. His choices are not uncaused. His choices are not uncaused. HIS. CHOICES. ARE. NOT. UNCAUSED.

Pytheus wrote:
As far as my "argument" with secret. I was trying to say that he already had a bias against the idea and therefor any explanation I gave, I felt, will only be shot down cause the fundamental component of the idea was not acceptable to him. I don't expect him to simply accept it to be true. I fully expect him not to believe anything I put forward. So arguing is futile and a waste of time.

You misunderstand the purpose of arguing. If there was actually any reasoning behind what you were saying, if what you were saying made sense, then it would be worth thinking about. If, on the other hand, it were rife with specious logic and irrelevancies, then it wouldn't be worth thinking about. If you are so insecure that you can only upkeep conversation with people who completely agree with you, then why are you bothering starting these futile conversations?

Pytheus wrote:
Ideas aren't a waste of time. Not every idea needs a explaination to go with it. Ideas are meant to make us think and explore. Is Mountain Dew god? Of course we think about it, just momentarily cause its quick to come to the conclusion thats its a silly idea. But we did actually think about it no matter the length in time we've done it.

You are simply wrong. Most ideas are a waste of time. Whatever thought you put into considering whether Mountain Dew is God was wasted. Whatever thought you put into whether God is Omnipotently Sovereign, yet Miraculously not the Cause of the labels "good" and "evil" was wasted.

Pytheus wrote:
An idea can be presented and left for people to come to their own conclusions. Not everyone is going to think the same way and come to the same conclusions. I'll call this Creative Thinking. There is to much talk about logical thinking, when the right answers may not seem logical to our minds, esp when it comes to subjects like god.

How can you misunderstand so many times in such a short period of time? No one is saying that ideas can't be valuable. No one is saying that everyone will think the same way, and come to the same conclusions. This is yet another example of you arguing the wrong thing.

It is the shit you have squeezed out into this thread that isn't valuable. You are not saying anything new or interesting or worth spending time considering. And as long as you absolutely refuse to filter your thoughts, to mention only the things that you can back up and make sense of, you'll find this same reaction from us. Why the fuck should we do your thinking for you?
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Secret



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Secret wrote:
Vox Raucus wrote:
Why should omnipotence mean the ability to do the absurd or self-contradictory?


Because if omnipotence is the power to create a system as well as manipulate it (as must be the case if we presume God to be the creator), then any sort of system can be created - including ones that reconcile concepts we view as contradictory.

Don't be a universe bigot.

I think you kinda missed the thrust of the question. He asked, "why A?" and you answered, "if A (as it must be if we presume A), then A."


I don't see how.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can refer to omnipotence as either able to do anything logically possible, or able to do anything, logic be damned.

You are using it in the second way, and Vox asked why.

You answered that if omnipotence is [the second definition] (as must be the case if we presume God to be omnipotent [using the second definition]), then God must be omnipotent [according to the second definition].
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