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The postwhoring thead of DOOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6282

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anybody here ever heard Sam Beam speak?

I love the guy's music, like, more than my first born son. He has these delicately sustained vocal notes that melt away on his tongue like cotton candy, and lyrics as subtle as they are terse... but then one day I'm watching him on Austin City Limits (do you guys in the UK/etc get ACL? It's the best music show, like, EVAR. Do yourself a favor.) and I'm watching him in the post-show interview and dude sounds like he just pulled the dregs on his 1000th bottle of back-country moonshine and finished the day alligator wrastlin'.

OMG. If love was governed by physical constraints, Sam Beam would be a naked singularity.
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10648

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM


Damnit. I hardly use openoffice anymore (because I don't write letters) and I was planning to switch from mysql to postgre anyway, but Java?

I need Java.
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Usagi Miyamoto



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2219
Location: wish you were here

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: snicker Reply with quote

Here's a nickel, kid, get yourself a real programming language.

(Real programmers grok everything from the transistors on up.)
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh.

Yes nothing teaches programming like struggling with compiler differences, linking libraries, writing the functional code in 5 indecipherable lines and filling the rest up with various inclusion guards in an undocumented macro language and going home having accomplished fuck all.

That article you're linking has got the right idea about recursion and functional programming, but he seems to think these are somehow inexorably linked to procedural programming languages with pointers and segmentation faults. The point about Java being "simple" is that it hides the system architecture and let's you focus on the algorithms. The syntax is clean, simple and easy enough to resemble pseudo code without going all the way and becoming a scripting language. I can't think of a better way to teach functional programming (it's what's inside a method) and recursion.

I get so sick and tired of people bitching about Java. All the arguments are toss. Yes there's overhead*, just like there's overhead when you use c over assembler, assembler over direct CPU access or a RISC processor instead of one with a giant custom built instruction set.

(* unless you compile it, which you can, or use the JIT compiler on windows, which is only 10 years old by now)

Donald Knuth proving algorithms with pencil and paper on his desk is good programming. Dealing with system architecture, compiler quirks, inter-compiler (in)compatibility, dependencies, the unix debug command etc is something else.

Should first year students write their own boot loader too? Write a primitive little OS and a cute little compiler and slowly work their way up to a TCP library so they can send their homework in? Why not give all of 'm a box of N and a box of P silicon - if they can't work out which is which we've "weeded out the lousy programmers".

It's a shame you can't know everything but you can't. End of story. It's gone far to far for that. Software that functions as one tight unit from start to finish in a single style can be beautiful to behold, pretty much like a finely tuned race-car where every component is made to match, but it's just not gonna happen in consumer products. There's no money, there's no time and only a handful of people in the world can do it.

Java has all the procedural programming that C has and the OO focus means every unit of code has it's own little API. Students learning to program (or, like me, receiving formal education in programming for the first time) in Java learn to focus on encapsulation and placing responsibility within a larger framework straight from the start. Forgive me if that seems far more relevant nowadays than debugging segmentation faults.

Ouch man. I like you and I'm sure that was more of a playful poke than a stab in the back but talk about hitting a nerve.
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
rrrrrrrr

froth froth froth
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12068
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what too much Java does to you.
Time to switch to decaf!
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10648

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and I'd totally take that course
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record I love abstract deep down functional programming. I wrote all my own data structures for a while until I gave in and accepted the standard library ones have been more thoroughly debugged. When I still studied mechanical engineering we did a crazy project in Fortran where we were supposed to get a copy of the scientific toolkit to solve ODE's etc but because it was posted several weeks late I pretty much had my own version up by then (approx 8 times slower than ODE45 so I had to ditch it). Back in high school I attempted to write "fast" code in quickbasic which meant using it's IRQ methods to try and access hardware more or less directly. (it never worked and led to random crashes but was fun)

All of those were valuable learning experiences but...
If programming is a giant stack of abstractions (exactly as messy as the TCP/IP stack) I think modern programmers need to start somewhere in the middle and then work either up (towards ruby and python and the likes) or down (towards kernels and boot loaders etc).

Good algorithm design, mathematical proofs of computability etc permeate the entire stack and are not particularly associated with any specific level. The people working in the "lower" levels tend to be more hard core because back in the day that was all there was. The best dutch information science studies are still combined with electronics. That means all our best programmers still know how transistors work and when they think of the good old days when life was simple and their were professors and guide books to hold their hand that's what they remember.
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
squirm squirm punch punch look at my street cred
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10648

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe how easy it is to make me do this :(
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been forced to eat it since childhood, and it retails for 5 cents... why do I still enjoy ramen noodles?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nathan wrote:
I've been forced to eat it since childhood, and it retails for 5 cents... why do I still enjoy ramen noodles?

Because they're cheap, easy, and unhealthy?


Shall we exchange ramen recipes?
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6282

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i use them as a base for ad-hoc hot&sour OR eggflower

and sometimes, if I'm feeling REALLY CRAZY, i make egg foo yung!
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ramen is made for eggs, it seems.

I stir in some scrambled egg with mine. But before that I throw in some Mrs. Dash. All fancy-like.
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6282

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to make a cook book lethal to gastronomes.

1) Foie Gras Ramen Crumble Meatloaf
2) Ramen & Kobe Jerky Stir Fry
3) Hot & Sour Ramen with Matsutake and chives
4) Bluefin sashimi and Frank's Red Hot, with dry Ramen crackers

etc
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