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1/27/08 - There is No God
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bun bun
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Usagi Miyamoto wrote:
So, would you call this an argument from beauty or a teleological argument for God?


The former.


TestTubeError wrote:
Wow. Pretty art. Crappy logic. Poor combination.

Reminds me of those Mormon paintings.

I wonder where kids who suffer from enormous tumors on their faces fit into that picture.

Harlequin Ichthyosis: it's the baby's fault for succumbing to Satan.
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Secret



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, uh... It does look pretty demonic.
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longscarf



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:48 am    Post subject: HI sufferer becomes triathlete Reply with quote

http://www.10news.com/health/3919722/detail.html
Also check Wikipedia's links
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bun bun
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I am aware of the athlete who survived the disease. However, consider the post-script to the title:

Harlequin Ichthyosis Usually Fatal At Birth

which makes me wonder, was God just testing all of those other babies born in hideous agony?

(If you dig around a little, which I have, you find that mortality rate is so close to 100%, it isn't even published exactly in halequin ichthyosis specific articles or websites.)
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:48 am    Post subject: It's my axiom and I'm sticking to it. Reply with quote

Any form of death or suffering is beautiful guys.

Seriously, it's part of life. Get used to it.

Also, there's another way to interpret the "argument", since the words "God", and "beautiful" are so loosely defined, and are also very subjective terms.

For example, in this comic, God could represent the balance/peace/blahblahblah of nature.

Either way, Tat is being far too vague for this comic to be either original or insightful, so he gets a boo from me.

Pretty art though.
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Kry
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: It's my axiom and I'm sticking to it. Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Any form of death or suffering is beautiful guys.

Seriously, it's part of life. Get used to it.

Also, there's another way to interpret the "argument", since the words "God", and "beautiful" are so loosely defined, and are also very subjective terms.

For example, in this comic, God could represent the balance/peace/blahblahblah of nature.

Either way, Tat is being far too vague for this comic to be either original or insightful, so he gets a boo from me.

Pretty art though.



"OF COURSE THERE IS A GOD."

Yeah. Pretty ambiguous.
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reasonablymad



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

people are emotional creatures. it's not hard to look at one corner of life and think there is a god, and then turn another corner and think there isn't. I don't really see this strip as putting forth any absolutes, other than saying something about human nature. it could run backwards and be just as "true".
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netsplit



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Taoism the beauty of natural things ranks pretty high up, and Taoist beliefs are shared in parts with many Eastern Religions.

There's a story in Taoism this comic reminds me of. Telling it from memory hope I don't mess it up.

A King decided to see which was superior Confucianism or Taoism. To do this he brought the top Confucians and Taoists into the palace and gave them each a wall to make the most beautiful image they could of his kingdom in one week.

The Confucians studied everything in great detail, and meticulously labored on their wall. The Taoists got drunk while singing drinking songs and polishing their wall.

The week went by. The king got up at sunrise to see the results. The Confucian work on the wall was stunning, The king had never seen such detail. They replicated every detail of his palace. Things like his courtyard and palace walls, the stream that ran by, his pond, his majestic horse, and cherry orchard. All of it, replicated on the wall.

The king was stunned it was the best painting he ever saw, but he figured he'd atleast look at what the Taoists did.

As he walked up looking at the wall he saw the sparkle as the sunrise glistened off his cherry trees. His eyes drifted over to see the morning wind ripple through his horse's mane as it took a sip from his stream. He watched the stream sparkle as the morning sun shown through coloring as it babbled over rocks. Then he looked at his palace which shown peach in the morning sun. The Taoists had polished the wall till it was a mirror.

The king was spell bound and asked how such beauty could be on a wall?

The Taoists replied that they just showed him the beauty that was already there.




One thing I think Taoism is about is making peace with life and with yourself.

Monique apparently needs to believe in a good force in control of the world. Maybe the puppet God wasn't doing it for her, I don't know, but she found her good force in the beauty of nature. She chose to label that force "God" because that's what we're taught is all good and all powerful.

Where as nature isn't good, bad, all powerful, or even intelligent, it just is. However it's the thing that makes our bodies, makes our food, our air, brings us water, even provides energy for our toys, and generally takes care of us.


Nature is the God Monique just found.
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Death Ray



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:31 pm    Post subject: Gulp Reply with quote

Well, that fish baby just ruined my day, but it was an effective counterpoint to Tat's strip. I guess we are in a glass-half-something argument.

As I type this I am listening to a roundtable discussion between atheist popstars Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins on the subject of religion, and of course, none of it can resolve the atom of incongruity that is at the heart of all religious/secular inquiry into the origin of life and the Universe, and that is that both arguments arrive inevitably at the same brick wall: what is the measurable prime-mover of existence? An inscrutible God, an inscrutible pre-Big Bang phenomenon, or something else?

The problem with the God/No God question appears to me to be this: Faith requires that you believe in something unprovable, something usually not even justified by a gut feeling. It is a wish made on a birthday cake. Reason says that logic will uncover the answer...someday. Both fields of thought (if faith can be called such) admit to having no answer.

Faith, as a response to the question of existence, is obsolete. This is a fact. But another dimension of thought will have to be unearthed to supersede reason before we finally arrive at an answer that can be agreed upon by most, if not all, people who are willing to devote honest inquiry to this topic.



"I fought the Wall and the Wall won."

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Vox Raucus



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Death Ray wrote:
Faith, as a response to the question of existence, is obsolete. This is a fact.

Ummm, no. That's an opinion.

And I think the question would be more properly put, "What do either science or religion have to offer the question of the meaning of existence?" It seems to me that the humanism put forward by Hitchens, Dawkins and the rest of the popular atheism set, are just baseless as the views they attack. At worst, their views are dishonest because they retain the metaphysical values of the very perspectives they reject. Give me the honest atheism of Nietzsche or Camus over the self-indulgent drivel of Hitchens any day.

Both science and faith require an apriori schema of belief if one is to take meaning from them: for faith, the belief that some sort of divine being exists, while for science, the belief that nothing exists beyond the material. Since neither science nor faith can prove their systems of belief, ultimately it's an existential wager.
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Secret



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:
while for science, the belief that nothing exists beyond the material


ehhh, I'd place that closer to 'beyond the logical' or possibly the demonstrable.
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The Highlord



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:
while for science, the belief that nothing exists beyond the material. Since neither science nor faith can prove their systems of belief, ultimately it's an existential wager.


Humanism aside, what the hell are you talking about? Science is a system for explaining and investigating the world. There is no EULA where you must check the "There is nothing beyond the material," box when deciding that you prefer proof over wishful thinking before you can "believe" in science, whatever that's supposed to mean.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: It's my axiom and I'm sticking to it. Reply with quote

Kry wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Any form of death or suffering is beautiful guys.

Seriously, it's part of life. Get used to it.

Also, there's another way to interpret the "argument", since the words "God", and "beautiful" are so loosely defined, and are also very subjective terms.

For example, in this comic, God could represent the balance/peace/blahblahblah of nature.

Either way, Tat is being far too vague for this comic to be either original or insightful, so he gets a boo from me.

Pretty art though.



"OF COURSE THERE IS A GOD."

Yeah. Pretty ambiguous.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
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longscarf



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Humanism as a schema pervades all the scientific disciplines so much that it is virtually impossible to have any sort of reasonable discussion about faith with a scientist such as Dawkins, since his definition of faith excludes any sort of proof. And of course Dawkins insults in print anyone who disagrees with him. His treatment of the author of Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, by a non-creationist, is a good example of how Dawkins doesn't like people to see how few clothes the emperor is actually wearing. At least he's married to Lalla Ward.
I do agree that science is supposed to be a system for investigation and explanation. But what you accept as your non-provable premises (like the axioms of geometry) will influence how you interpret the data you uncover. Dawkins would accept 'beyond the material' I am sure as a fine definition of his axioms.
I wonder though, where everyone gets the idea that faith=belief in something you can't prove. Can't prove scientifically (by repeatable experiment) yes. All of life is like that, though. I can't prove my yesterday to anyone. But science is only one way of looking at and understanding the world, and does have its limitations.
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longscarf



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:45 am    Post subject: back to the house of sojobo Reply with quote

Sorry, been busy working & training, finally got back to this.

Quote:
When you're talking about uniqueness of a old book, you're not talking about it being inherently valuable because it is by definition distinct from every other book. You're talking about it being more valuable than other books because of its market rarity. Its low supply means that only a certain number of collectors are able to have a copy. The value being added by rarity is relative to other items of its type.


Actually, I am talking about both of those things. Low supply, in this case, is a supply of one, which adds to the distinction. (Though it is true, considering the market concept, that it's only as valuable as what someone is willing to pay for it.)

Quote:
People are not more valuable because of their market rarity


Using words like market rather loads the question, doesn't it? Yet consider Ishi, the last survivor of the Yaqui Indian tribe, or the protagonist of 'Island Of The Blue Dolphins,' last survivor of the tribe of Ghalas-at. Their story of their people, their culture is prised, not only for its inherent richness, but also because they are the only ones left who can tell us anything about it.
This isn't really all i want to say, and rihgt now i don't think i'm saying it effectively, but it's pretty late here. Got to go to bed, and comfort my howling dog.
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