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1/27/08 - There is No God
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YenTheFirst



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

longscarf wrote:

I wonder though, where everyone gets the idea that faith=belief in something you can't prove.

I would imagine it has something to do with
Hebrews 11:1 wrote:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

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filecore



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

longscarf wrote:
I wonder though, where everyone gets the idea that faith=belief in something you can't prove.


Isn't faith generally defined as "belief without evidence"? Maybe they get their ideas from the dictionary and from the common use of the language. What's your definition of faith, please?
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Kry
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

filecore wrote:
longscarf wrote:
I wonder though, where everyone gets the idea that faith=belief in something you can't prove.


Isn't faith generally defined as "belief without evidence"? Maybe they get their ideas from the dictionary and from the common use of the language. What's your definition of faith, please?


Google "define:faith" and be amazed.
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filecore



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kry wrote:
Google "define:faith" and be amazed.


I already did - scroll down to the 28th entry and you'll find word-for-word what I posted :wink: you're not the only one who knows about the define: operator.
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Kry
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

filecore wrote:
Kry wrote:
Google "define:faith" and be amazed.


I already did - scroll down to the 28th entry and you'll find word-for-word what I posted Wink you're not the only one who knows about the define: operator.


That's not the point. It also says "Faith is George Michael's first solo album, released in late 1987. " That's the point. You have to check where you get the definition from.
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filecore



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it is the point. This is the internet. I believe everything I read, unless I feel that for some abstract reason I disagree with it, and then I go and believe a different pseudo-factoid until I feel happy. Why has your apparent search for truth led you to, of all places, the internet?
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bun bun
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm so glad my basic axioms are BIG MAN IN SKY IS REAL AND MADE THINGS and FAITH COMES BEFORE LOGIC instead of 2+2=4 and if p then not notp, because I find it impossible to build beauty out of simplicity, it just FUCKS WITH MY MIND, MAN
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Vox Raucus



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secret wrote:
Vox Raucus wrote:
while for science, the belief that nothing exists beyond the material

ehhh, I'd place that closer to 'beyond the logical' or possibly the demonstrable.

Maybe, but amounts to the same thing in the end. Supernatural realities always wind up as non-demonstrable.

The Highlord wrote:
Science is a system for explaining and investigating the world. There is no EULA where you must check the "There is nothing beyond the material," box when deciding that you prefer proof over wishful thinking before you can "believe" in science, whatever that's supposed to mean.

Perhaps, for an ordinary and thoughtful person, science and faith can co-exist in an uneasy truce. For Hitchens and his ilk however, science absolutely rules out everything that it cannot demonstrate as non-existent. Dawkins is the most insistent on this sort of thing.

To put it another way, science operates with certain presuppositions, which must be accepted in order for science to function at all. One presupposition is that everything may be explained by naturalistic means. Another is that scientists can operate objectively. Propositions such as these are essentially unprovable - one must believe them for science to make any sense.
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YenTheFirst



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who exactly decided to treat 'science' as if it were a faith? It isn't a belief system, it doesn't offer meaning. It is only a method for modeling and explaining natural phenomena.

Quote:
One presupposition is that everything may be explained by naturalistic means.

Not necessarily, but the point of science is to find the explanation. If you assume that things cannot be explained, the science is still valid, you just don't do it.

Quote:

Another is that scientists can operate objectively.

erm, false, I believe. That's why results of an experiment need to be repeatable. That's why double-blind tests are used, with statistics drawn up by third parties. Scientists are human, and thus do no operate objectively. However, responsible scientists will take measures to remove personal bias, so that the end result is more objective.
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longscarf



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:34 am    Post subject: definition Reply with quote

faith=trust
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Vox Raucus



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YenTheFirst wrote:
Not necessarily, but the point of science is to find the explanation. If you assume that things cannot be explained, the science is still valid, you just don't do it.

The point is that it automatically rejects non-naturalistic explanations, especially for rare or non-repeatable phenomena.

YenTheFirst wrote:
Vox Raucus wrote:
Another is that scientists can operate objectively.

erm, false, I believe. That's why results of an experiment need to be repeatable. That's why double-blind tests are used, with statistics drawn up by third parties. Scientists are human, and thus do no operate objectively. However, responsible scientists will take measures to remove personal bias, so that the end result is more objective.

Human error has very little to do with objectivity. The fact that science maintains that it is possible to limit one's own bias and observe phenomena and deduce causal links is what's important here.

longscarf wrote:
faith=trust

What does this even mean?
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:

longscarf wrote:
faith=trust

What does this even mean?

isn't it obvious? it's an equation! The only conclusion that can be drawn is that without faith there is no trust and without trust there is no faith and you have to trust your faith to bring you the faith of trust, to trust others so they will have faith in you



... sorry, I've run out of things to pull out of my ass.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yorick wrote:
Vox Raucus wrote:

longscarf wrote:
faith=trust

What does this even mean?

isn't it obvious? it's an equation! The only conclusion that can be drawn is that without faith there is no trust and without trust there is no faith and you have to trust your faith to bring you the faith of trust, to trust others so they will have faith in you



... sorry, I've run out of things to pull out of my ass.


Emptiness is loneliness,
and loneliness is cleanliness
And cleanliness is godliness,
and god is empty just like me

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Vox Raucus



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yorick wrote:
... sorry, I've run out of things to pull out of my ass.

Gosh, I hope that's not a permanent condition!
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure if I really reach I can get that 20 pounds of tomatoes.
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