Sinfest Forum Index Sinfest
welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Random News Stories of Note
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 713, 714, 715 ... 784, 785, 786  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10431
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stand Your Ground, justifiable homicide, and race:
Quote:
Twenty-nine states have U.S. laws have “stand your ground” (SYG) laws that allow people to use proportionate force in the face of an attack without first trying to retreat or escape. At MetroTrends, John Roman and Mitchell Downey report their analysis of 4,650 FBI records of homicides in which a person killed a stranger with a handgun. They conclude that stand your ground “tilts the odds in favor of the shooter.” In SYG states, 13.6% of homicides were ruled justifiable; in non-SYG states, only 7.2% were deemed such. This is strong evidence that rulings of justifiable homicide are more likely under stand your ground.

But which homicides?

Ones similar to the one decided in favor of George Zimmerman today. A finding of “justifiable homicide” is much more common in the case of a white-on-black killing than any other kind including a white and a black person. As PBS’s request, Roman compared the likelihood of a favorable finding for the defendant in SYG and non SYG cases, consider the races of the people involved. The data is clear, compared to white-on-white crimes, stand your ground increases the likelihood of a not-guilty finding, but only when a person is accused of killing a black person.


_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10877
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Yeah, if you're black and wearing a hoodie in this country you're disposable, even if you're killed by an overzealous wanna-be cop who disobeyed the police and went looking for a confrontation.


Given that a 911 dispatcher is not a police officer and is instead just someone trained to use a radio system to coordinate the disposition of emergency services, nothing Zimmerman did was actually illegal.

You realize that's not what I said, right? I'm talking about racial disparities in the criminal justice system - who gets in trouble for killing whom. The data is pretty evident, that the system chews up blacks preferentially, whether as perpetrators or victims. If you kill a white person you're more likely to get the death penalty than if you kill a black person, if you hold all other factors equal.


Mindslicers point is that Zimmerman did not disobey the police. And he's absolutely correct in that.

Sadly this was probably the correct decision. While what Zimmerman did was obviously fucking stupid and he's a complete asshole, the state did not prove their case and I very much doubt they really could. The police fucked it up.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10431
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the question of what authority police dispatchers have is nebulous anyway. One of their essential functions is to tell people what to do - how to give CPR, what to do in an emergency, etc. Whether they have the legal authority to compel you is secondary to their essential function of advising you.

And they are "the police," even if they aren't sworn officers (and, depending on the district, they sometimes are both).
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10877
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Well, the question of what authority police dispatchers have is nebulous anyway. One of their essential functions is to tell people what to do - how to give CPR, what to do in an emergency, etc. Whether they have the legal authority to compel you is secondary to their essential function of advising you.

And they are "the police," even if they aren't sworn officers (and, depending on the district, they sometimes are both).


That isn't secondary when it's the issue at hand. Of course Zimmerman should have followed their advice, but the question is whether or not he disobeyed the police. And it's simply true that he didn't disobey the police.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10431
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're using those phrases differently. If he was legally compelled to follow their instructions he probably would have been charged with a crime for disobeying. He wasn't charged, hence it's obvious there was likely no legal compulsion.

I'm talking about the morality of the situation with regard to mitigating and aggravating factors of social justice, and as such the added moral responsibility conferred by not listening to advice from a person you called for assistance and who is trained to respond to those situations.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10431
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is to say, not only did Zimmerman have the wrong temperament and had already decided Trayvon was a likely threat before approaching him (saying "these assholes always get away"), but he also ignored an opportunity to do the right thing when it was suggested by a person who is trained in advising people in dangerous situations. He was presented with an alternative and rejected it because he wanted to catch a bad guy.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10431
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, also, the question of whether a dispatcher can compel you is secondary because no officer can compel you not to do something you have the legal right to do (they can't compel you not to check your mail, to stay seated when there are no exigent circumstances, etc). Zimmerman had the legal right to do everything right up until the question of the assault and the shooting, the question is, "Was it a really stupid idea that could easily have been avoided if he had a) not profiled Martin, or b) followed the advice of a trained professional?" and the answer is yes.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9189

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am actually (my god!) going to stick up for mindslicer here as what he is saying is correct and relevant to the case. But it still seems pretty obvious that Zimmerman was a dude jonesing for a confrontation and who really didn't want the person he saw 'scoping properties' to 'get away'

Therein lies the issue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9189

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I'm going to probably stick my fucking neck out here and say that I sat down and I watched nearly the entire trial and at the end of it I was completely sick with all of it because I knew that in this case I would vote "not guilty" as well.

This is me speaking as a person who thinks Zimmerman is an idiot wannabe cop with a vigilante complex who probably started an altercation with Martin and shouldn't have been fucking stalking him at night anyway, and so Martin's death is at the very least a product of Zimmerman's negligent and rash behavior (that Zimmerman eventually escalated to lethality).

But if you want to send someone to jail for that, you have to adequately prosecute and make the case for that fact. Armchair prosecution is fine, but actual legal penalty is completely divorced from that fact. The prosecution was a joke. They did not establish Zimmerman's guilt for anything, especially not under the burdens that Florida requires to counter someone's claim of self-defense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10431
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And, what I didn't think was important but apparently is, I never said Mindslicer was wrong. I told him (and Snorri)* that I was talking about the issues outside the legalities, namely the disparities in the way people apply the law when a black person is the victim.


* First reply to Mindslicer re: the implication Zimmerman's actions were illegal: "that's not what I said ... I'm talking about racial disparities in the criminal justice system."
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3445
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Stand Your Ground, justifiable homicide, and race:
Quote:
Twenty-nine states have U.S. laws have “stand your ground” (SYG) laws that allow people to use proportionate force in the face of an attack without first trying to retreat or escape. At MetroTrends, John Roman and Mitchell Downey report their analysis of 4,650 FBI records of homicides in which a person killed a stranger with a handgun. They conclude that stand your ground “tilts the odds in favor of the shooter.” In SYG states, 13.6% of homicides were ruled justifiable; in non-SYG states, only 7.2% were deemed such. This is strong evidence that rulings of justifiable homicide are more likely under stand your ground.

But which homicides?

Ones similar to the one decided in favor of George Zimmerman today. A finding of “justifiable homicide” is much more common in the case of a white-on-black killing than any other kind including a white and a black person. As PBS’s request, Roman compared the likelihood of a favorable finding for the defendant in SYG and non SYG cases, consider the races of the people involved. The data is clear, compared to white-on-white crimes, stand your ground increases the likelihood of a not-guilty finding, but only when a person is accused of killing a black person.



Do they have graphs like this for each state separately?

It is not wise to aggregate them like this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10431
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I clicked on all the links for you, and the answer is no, there's no state-by-state comparison. You could potentially email the author of the study and request a copy (most authors actually enjoy that, it means they're being read).
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3772

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming from a very pro-self defense perspective (I'm in the process of finally getting my concealed carry license), even if one assumes that everything Zimmerman said is true... he's still an idiot and took risks that lead to the assault and the shooting. Assuming his story was true, he may not have violated any legal duty, but seriously, he thought things might be dangerous, and got out of his truck to have a looksie. Far better to drive away than to be in a position where you're getting jumped, in actual danger, and having to shoot. Dumbass. Not right that he got attacked, but still, just leave. Or at least stay in your truck with engine running, so you can bolt if needs be.

If you don't give him 100% confidence, it gets much worse, potentially up to the "he was hunting black children for sport" level professed by Sharpton, et al. All I'm saying is that even in the absolute best case, one must still conclude he was an idiot for putting himself in danger (not being a cop, etc.).

On the actual trial, I too watched most of it. As I said before, the prosecution was terrible. The lack of evidence, the lack of decorum, the... just... all of it. de la Ronda and Guy should be ashamed to call themselves attorneys. Could a better team have gotten a conviction? I don't know. I just don't see how any reasonable person could sit in that jury, look at those weeks of court, and figure, "yeah, they proved murder beyond a reasonable doubt."
_________________
“Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation”
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1697
Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
And, what I didn't think was important but apparently is, I never said Mindslicer was wrong. I told him (and Snorri)* that I was talking about the issues outside the legalities, namely the disparities in the way people apply the law when a black person is the victim.


* First reply to Mindslicer re: the implication Zimmerman's actions were illegal: "that's not what I said ... I'm talking about racial disparities in the criminal justice system."


Then since we seem to be in agreement that Zimmerman made a series of stupid, but not illegal decisions that led to Martin's death, I'm not sure why this particular case is relevant to your point. Do you think that, had the races been reversed but all other things remained the same, a black George Zimmerman would have been found guilty of 2nd degree murder of a white Trayvon Martin?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 785

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um... Zimmerman is Hispanic... this isn't a race thing and stop making it a race thing.

And if you argue with me, then we have a white president right now as well.
_________________
The Angry Asshat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 713, 714, 715 ... 784, 785, 786  Next
Page 714 of 786

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group