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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1852
Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Sam wrote:
it is hard to even really overstate how much the racial disparity makes this a race issue even fundamentally at its core before even you take into account the social response to this event.

A white person killing a black person is 230% more likely to be ruled a justifiable homicide compared to a white person killing a white person.

If anyone wants to claim that this is a matter of the natural criminal inclinations of blacks, good luck to you, poor fools. For everyone else, we are talking about a critically entrenched issue of social disparity which cuts to the root of all our most important systems of justice, and represent in sum a great injustice.


Call it the cynic in me but you have a breakdown for that by state at all?


If he's citing the statistics Dogen posted, then no. Those statistics were the result of a study in which homicides between 2005-2009 with one shooter and one victim who were strangers to each other were compared and grouped by the race of the victim and race of the assailant. That narrowed the scope of the study from 43,000 homicides across the United States to about 5,000. In that time span using those criteria, there were only 25 such homicides with a black victim and white assailant.
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

25? That's a very small sampling, and more importantly is less than one per states. I'd be interested in he variance they found, but which half-or-less of the states those twenty-fiveare in is huge - an even spread across the country says different things than a bunch in the northeast or a cluster in the south/texas, any of which could skew things either way.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, since no one cites their goddamn sources, here is the source for Mindslicer's last post. Which also says this:
Quote:
The system offers substantial discretion to authorities at every level, which is much more difficult to monitor and evaluate — and much more vulnerable to creeping bias.

That’s why the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights announced last month that it would investigate concerns about racial bias in the law’s application.

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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's interesting (to me, at any rate) that when push came to shove, the defense did _not_ bring up Stand Your Ground - even though that is the reason the police did essentially no investigation at the time of the shooting (which certainly didn't help the prosecution). i didn't listen to the trial, but it sounds like the prosecution didn't exactly do a brilliant job. the issue, to me, is not whether or not zimmerman was in fear of his life - it's how he ended up in a situation where he could have been. and he ended up there because he went to some effort to put himself there. as i recall, the police tell community watch groups _not_ to arm themselves - but zimmerman decided to arm himself. the 911 dispatcher told him to let the police handle the situation and not try to approach the suspect - but zimmerman got out of his truck, with his gun, followed martin and ultimately confronted him. (which he probably wouldn't have done, if he didn't have a gun to keep himself safe).

now sure, being stupid is not illegal. but being stupid and causing someone else's death because of your stupidity can certainly be prosecuted, and should have been in this case. 2nd degree was probably too much of a stretch, but i would have thought that a decent prosecution, that focused on the steps zimmerman took that escalated the situation, could at least have won a manslaughter conviction. as it is, they may have muddled up the situation so badly that there is no hope of bringing another case.

and in all the discussion of race - one thing the prosecutor said that hit me was something about trayvon martin being confronted by a child's worst fear - being followed home, at night, by a strange man. who then accosted him. strikes me that, had trayvon had a gun, he also would have had justification for shooting under SYG. so - anyone care to lay bets on how that case would have been decided? or if the police would have automatically taken the word of a 17 year old black guy, like they did that of a thirty-something white one?
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to the "child's worst fear" bit, I still keep coming back to, if Martin was so scared, why did he go back and get in a fight? He had a phone and could have called the cops. He was a hundred yards from the safety of a relative's house - easy to make in that four minute period. Instead he went back to confront the "creepy-ass cracker." I just don't get "scared child" from that. I *do* get "macho teenager trying to intimidate someone who looked at him the wrong way."
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not interesting at all. The stand your ground statute simply didn't apply, because at the time Zimmerman decided to use lethal force, he did not have an opportunity for escape -- Martin was on top of him.

The circumstances and decisions Zimmerman made that led to the confrontation ranged from unwise to outright stupid, but weren't illegal, so you cannot prosecute him for that.

The police detained Zimmerman and held him for some time at the police station the night of the incident and did an investigation. Zimmerman's injuries were consistent with his account, Martin was shot at close range and at an angle that suggested Martin was on top of him, and (unfortunately) there were no other direct witnesses, so the police had no evidence that countered Zimmerman's claim of self defense, and they couldn't hold him indefinitely until such time as they may have found some. He was not considered a flight risk (in fact, he turned himself in when he was charged with 2nd degree murder), so the police were legally compelled to release him.

And a 17-year old Martin would have been arrested for unlawful possession of a firearm even if he had shot Zimmerman in self defense, since you can't get a CCP in Florida until you're 21, and you can't openly carry a firearm there unless you're fishing, hunting, or sport shooting at a range.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
if Martin was so scared, why did he go back and get in a fight? He had a phone and could have called the cops.


1. we don't know that he went back to get in a fight in a way which indicates premeditation to harm zimmerman

2. being a black kid in florida offers plenty of incentive not to think of 'I can call the cops!' as an enticing option when you think you're being followed by a white guy in a car
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retaliatory attacks by blacks against non-blacks have started One in Mississippi, too.

edit: Also reports of rioting in Oakland. I can find pictures and whatnot on twitter, but I'm having trouble finding actual stories on any of the retaliation from non-shit sources. For instance, the pictures here are informative, but otherwise I know nothing about the actual site. Not sure why we aren't seeing anything from CNN, NBC, etc. on the violent acts of retaliation., and I wouldn't believe Infowars and its ilk without outside corroboration if they reported that our president looked rather tan.

So... grain of salt on everything except the Baltimore Sun article, I suppose (though the death threats on the various social networking sites are undeniable).
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Last edited by CTrees on Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
Retaliatory attacks by blacks against non-blacks have started One in Mississippi, too.



Don't be Baltimore, Don't be Baltimore, Don't be Baltimore, , Don't be... FUCK!
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a source that mentions some rioting, although the description of the Oakland riot sounds a lot smaller in the HuffPo piece. Buyer beware.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Here's a source that mentions some rioting, although the description of the Oakland riot sounds a lot smaller in the HuffPo piece. Buyer beware.


Just a side note, that Huffington Post link managed to send my browser into a fit. Had to Ctrl-Alt-Delete.

Sure as fuck hope we don't see another LA '92.
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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abdulrahman al-Awlaki saw justice when his murderer walked free of all charges.
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Here's a source that mentions some rioting, although the description of the Oakland riot sounds a lot smaller in the HuffPo piece. Buyer beware.


Just a side note, that Huffington Post link managed to send my browser into a fit. Had to Ctrl-Alt-Delete.

Sure as fuck hope we don't see another LA '92.


We won't. There will be a lot of death threats online, some isolated incidents of violence, and a few small-but-violent protests. At least that's the feeling I get.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
fritterdonut wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Here's a source that mentions some rioting, although the description of the Oakland riot sounds a lot smaller in the HuffPo piece. Buyer beware.


Just a side note, that Huffington Post link managed to send my browser into a fit. Had to Ctrl-Alt-Delete.

Sure as fuck hope we don't see another LA '92.


We won't. There will be a lot of death threats online, some isolated incidents of violence, and a few small-but-violent protests. At least that's the feeling I get.


And then the punditry will blow it all out of proportion.
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Video of anti-Zimmerman rioters and their random acts of violence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx8UCGzx7Fg

I... just do. not. understand how "random acts of violence against innocent bystanders" is a logical way to protest if what you are angry about is an act of violence against an innocent.
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