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Mini J



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 1166
Location: Toronto, ON

PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Off-topic, but we are seeing quite a spike in Ukrainian visitors at my work. Few seem willing to discuss the troubles there.

Actually, that's quite on topic, now I think about it.
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Mini J



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tangentally related to that, I had a lawyer for the MPAA come through at work today. I physically recoiled when they told me what they do.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Yes lol at people who take part in the protest movement actually opposing fascists

Are you really going to imply that anarchy is a legitimate political cause and that anarchy is any better than fascism? Advocating no state, no government to maintain social welfare, economic wellbeing and security, lawlessness, the epitome of Might-Makes-Right? It seems to me like both should be called out and told to leave.
Him wrote:
instead of cheering them on by extension, or at the very least downright ignoring the threat they pose.

Yes, because (the notedly Jewish) Klitschko and the UDAR trying to organize a peaceful ending to the protest by convincing Yanukovych to call elections, and calling for non-violent protest was totally cheering on the right wing Neo-Nazis. Or the newly freed Tymoshenko and her party, who last year was calling for parties to drop the linguistic and historical antagonism and find a way to work towards EU membership... they totally want fascism too, right? All the people waving EU flags, they're totally hardcore Nationalists, right?
Him wrote:
but I suppose you know better than people actually at Maidan
Firstly, where did I imply I knew better than the people at Maidan? I replied with 2 quotes, from your source, from Antifascist Action at that, from people CURRENTLY AT MAIDAN, who didn't think the Right Sektor was a threat because they didn't have popular support. Secondly, are you at Maidan? If so, I apologize. If not, then why do you feel you get to criticize me as if I'm an uneducated outsider, when you too are an outsider? You're the one who seems to be implying the Maidan protesters are misguided in their attempt to get rid of the old regime.
Him wrote:
Also, like I alluded to before, Jobbik are not in government in Hungary and yet they've gotten much of their vicious racist stuff through
That's incorrect, if by not in government you mean not represented in parliament. A quick look at the Jobbik Wikipedia page says they have 43/386 seats in the Hungarian National Assembly and 2/22 Hungarian seats in the European Parliament. Also, Jobbik has been losing power as of late, as the Jobbik-supported, possibly Jobbik-funded paramilitary Magyar Gárda was outlawed. And extensive searching, including through Amnesty International et al has shown an increase in anti-racism and specifically anti-anti-Roma funding in Hungary and increased EU oversight to prevent racism. So far the only Jobbik bill I've found that has actually passed (they've tabled plenty of ones that were immediately voted down) was about removing the pre-trial holding limit for some crimes and only passed because the majority party Fidesz supported it. In 2010, Fidesz grew more than Jobbik did after the cutting down of the MSZP, and the paper that statistic is from suggests Fidesz is actively trying to take Jobbik voters in an attempt to minimize the radical party's influence. And according to these polls, Jobbik, which enjoyed 15% of the vote in 2010, is now polling somewhere around 7-8%, half of what they polled 3 years ago.
Him wrote:
and the ukrainian fascists have significantly more momentum.
Not according to the Antifascist Action interview you posted. And not according to this article from the Economist, which says that Svoboda is actually polling lower than it was prior to the protest, and that under one in twelve protesters is related to any party, and less than a third of protesters belong to any kind of organization.

Ukraine's Protesters: Who are they? [The Economist]
The Economist wrote:
UKRAINE'S "opposition" or "the protestors" are much-used terms. But who are they? Under one in twelve of those living in the ever-more elaborate tent structures on Kiev's Independence Square are members of any party. Less than a third belong to any organisation whatsoever. The Maidan (which can mean the wider protest movement and those on the square itself) is hard to pin down.

For many demonstrators the opposition parties are merely a slightly-less-bad section of the country's corrupt establishment. Yet tens of thousands turn out every Sunday and listen to the leaders of those parties, who meet with the authorities, and with Western diplomats. The protesters deplore the existing political framework, but they are working within it: they control the politicians, not the other way round. True, but not necessarily comforting: violence broke out on January 19th, despite opposition leaders' calls for calm. Shortly afterwards, the politicians ramped up the rhetoric themselves with threats to "go on the attack".

So who is in control? Pro-government and Russian media use the presence of far-right groups as a way of discrediting the protestors. The claims are exaggerated, but not wholly unfounded. Oleh Tyahnibok's Svoboda [Freedom] party, originally the Social-National party of Ukraine) is the only one of significant size in terms of membership. It has ties to the British National Party and French National Front. It scored 10% in the 2012 election and polls around 5-7% lately. Nowadays its leaders present a moderate image. But Svoboda activists have been criticised for bullying tactics in establishing control over occupied buildings, and critics also highlight ties to the neo-Nazi C14/Sich group.

Most of the organised units of the Maidan Samooborona (self-defence) forces, though, are under the leadership of Andriy Parubiy, a nationalist-leaning MP from Arseniy Yatseniuk's Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) party. These are the volunteers guarding the barricades, wearing protective clothing and carrying makeshift weapons. Most have no affiliation to far-right groups.

Some of Samooborona's more fearsome units, though, belong to the Pravyy Sektor (Right Sector), which formed in November as a coalition of ultra-nationalist groups. It has an estimated 500-700 members, and a good deal of influence, particularly because of the role it played in the violence that started on 19 January. Yet anarchist groups were also at the forefront of those clashes and further back from the front line you could find a cross-section of Ukrainian society, with protesters who have no connection whatsoever to radical circles cheering the fighters on.

Not all the radicals are far-right. Spilna Sprava, a civic movement that drew condemnation and violent retribution in January after occupying three government ministries, is led by Oleksandr Danilyuk, a longtime activist on other issues such as tax. His and other groups have been the subject of speculation that they are Moscow-backed provocateurs. No proof has been offered and the allegations are denied.

A range of civil society groups, NGOs and activists are nowhere near the far-right. Often though, they are just as exposed to violence and harassment as Samooborona units are. The popular Automaidan, which organises motorcade-style protests, has seen one of its leaders kidnapped and beaten, countless cars torched, and one activist killed. Yet car-owning Ukrainians keep signing up.

Centre.ua, whose Chesno (Honestly) project exposes politicians' misdeeds, helps Ukrainian NGOs communicate with foreigners. It is under investigation for money laundering (it says the charge is ridiculous as it has undergone a stringent international audit).

Journalist-activists Ihor Lutsenko and Tetiana Chornovil, both of whom have been severely beaten, sit alongside politicians, singers and other public figures on the Council of Maidan, theoretically a bridge between civil society and the political establishment. Democratic Alliance, a small centrist party that campaigns against corruption, is also represented here. They complain that the council is dominated by the mainstream parties.

Outsiders see a contradiction between these "pro-Europeans" and the radical right. But for Ukrainians it's different. Despite the gulf between liberals and hardcore nationalists, all participants in the movement agree that they are fighting kleptocracy and corruption. The movement was started by those who believe closer ties with the European Union will help escape those problems, and that Russian interference will not. Not all of the far right groups go along with the Europe bit, but that is already a secondary, tactical issue.

Pro-European Ukrainians feel they are allied with far-right groups against a more sinister enemy. The tactics used by the riot police, with six protesters dead, have only strengthened the conviction that drastic times call for drastic approaches.


Another polling of 1,037 Ukrainian protesters by the Democratic Initiatives Foundation found the following:
Responses, In Percent, What prompted you to go to Maidan wrote:
Refusal of Viktor Yanukovych to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union
53.5
The brutal beating protesters on Maidan on the night of November 30, repression
69.6
Calls opposition leaders
5.4
The desire to change the power in the country
39.1
The desire to change life in Ukraine
49.9
Solidarity with friends, colleagues, and relatives
6.2
Collapse of democracy, the threat of dictatorship
18.9
For fun or excitement
2.2
The desire to avenge the government for what it has done to the Ukraine
5.2
The danger that Ukraine will enter into a customs union and return to Russia
16.9
The money I paid (or promised to pay)
0.3
Other (what?)
3.3
Difficult to say
0.5

And also:
Responses, In Percent, Individual or Party participation wrote:
Organized - one of the parties
1.8
Organized - one of the NGOs (or movements)
6.3
Arrived alone
91.9

Only a total of 8.1% of those polled because of NGO, movement, or political party organization. 91.9% of them came as individuals. Most of them are outraged at the actions of the government against the Maidan protesters. 71% of them want the Ukraine to join the EU. Almost half of them want a change of quality of life in the Ukraine. 38% want to restrict the power of the President and return the constitution reform of 2004. 39% wanted Tymoshenko released. Do these really sound like the things the radical right would support? Decreased presidential power, an EU deal, the release of the leader of a large, potential rival party?
From summary of above link wrote:
The vast majority of the square (92%) belongs neither to any party or to public organizations and movements. Party members are 4%, 3.5% belong to public organizations, 1% - to social movements.

In the end, Yanukovych dug his own hole. 70% of the people at Maidan went there because he decided to use excessive force. Hell, Yatsenyuk is suggesting if he is caught he should be tried at the Hague.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey now, who do you think you are replying to Him's Communist Goggles with facts and stuff? Don't you know he's revolutionizing in Stockholm? He's srs bsns!
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Him wrote:
Yes lol at people who take part in the protest movement actually opposing fascists

Are you really going to imply that anarchy is a legitimate political cause and that anarchy is any better than fascism? Advocating no state, no government to maintain social welfare, economic wellbeing and security, lawlessness, the epitome of Might-Makes-Right? It seems to me like both should be called out and told to leave.

Yes, while I am no anarchist, I am seriously going to imply that Anti-fascism is preferrable to fascism. I'd question your strange summary of anarchism too, but that is quite honestly beside the point.

Quote:
Yes, because (the notedly Jewish) Klitschko and the UDAR trying to organize a peaceful ending to the protest by convincing Yanukovych to call elections, and calling for non-violent protest was totally cheering on the right wing Neo-Nazis. Or the newly freed Tymoshenko and her party, who last year was calling for parties to drop the linguistic and historical antagonism and find a way to work towards EU membership... they totally want fascism too, right? All the people waving EU flags, they're totally hardcore Nationalists, right?

Yes, UDAR and Tymoshenko are nationalists politicians. They have been using the fascists quite literally as their footsoldiers, I think there might be lesson from history there in regards to how fascism gains in strength but you know...who cares about history right? That some of the opposition to Russian dominance has turned into a pro-EU position is self-evident but it's hardly so that there is a majority support for joining the EU, nor is it really a very likely scenario to happen in the near future.
Furthermore it is also in part an expression of a "europeanism" based on anti-russian sentiment (which is why for instance Svoboda too speak favourably of joining the EU something that is slightly at odds with many of their far right bretheren in Europe).

Quote:
Firstly, where did I imply I knew better than the people at Maidan? I replied with 2 quotes, from your source, from Antifascist Action at that, from people CURRENTLY AT MAIDAN, who didn't think the Right Sektor was a threat because they didn't have popular support.

Uhm. So you did a text search for "threat" instead of reading the actual interview? otherwise it is quite absurd that you would conclude that they do not see the Right Sector as a threat. I already quoted some of the relevant parts about how the Right Sector defence committes have taken control of some areas, but you know as long as they won't become the government after the next elections I am sure there's no cause to worry about that at all. So let's take the full quote instead of your cropped version:
"S: There’s a whole spectrum of Nationalists represented. They divide themselves into groups with their own symbols. They want support so they don’t use Nazi or fascist symbols so much. They use symbols that are recognizable to other fascistic people, but look innocuous to anyone else. For example there is a special eagle symbol. It’s drawn a certain way, it doesn’t look like anything unless you know the meaning.
No one has any idea how this could turn out, what form a new government could take. The fascist groups don’t have common aims, they know what they’re opposed to, and that they’re opposed to each other, but they don’t all want the same things. If Pravy has positions in a new government that would be really dangerous but that isn’t possible, they aren’t powerful enough.

M: People have these chants: “Glory Ukraine,” “Glory to Heroes,” “Death to Enemies.” But who are these heroes, who are these enemies? I don’t think they have any idea. “Ukraine Above All” is one, just like they used to chant in Germany."

Quote:
Secondly, are you at Maidan? If so, I apologize. If not, then why do you feel you get to criticize me as if I'm an uneducated outsider, when you too are an outsider? You're the one who seems to be implying the Maidan protesters are misguided in their attempt to get rid of the old regime.

Not at all, I think the grievances are legitimate. I just happen to not take your casual approach to the increased militancy and support enjoyed by the far right (nor for that matter the corrupt so called opposition poitical leaders). There's been plenty of media coverage that flat out ignore the prominence of the fascist groups, whereas others even speak favourably of Svoboda.

Quote:
That's incorrect, if by not in government you mean not represented in parliament. A quick look at the Jobbik Wikipedia page says they have 43/386 seats in the Hungarian National Assembly and 2/22 Hungarian seats in the European Parliament. Also, Jobbik has been losing power as of late, as the Jobbik-supported, possibly Jobbik-funded paramilitary Magyar Gárda was outlawed. And extensive searching, including through Amnesty International et al has shown an increase in anti-racism and specifically anti-anti-Roma funding in Hungary and increased EU oversight to prevent racism. So far the only Jobbik bill I've found that has actually passed (they've tabled plenty of ones that were immediately voted down) was about removing the pre-trial holding limit for some crimes and only passed because the majority party Fidesz supported it. In 2010, Fidesz grew more than Jobbik did after the cutting down of the MSZP, and the
paper that statistic is from suggests Fidesz is actively trying to take Jobbik voters in an attempt to minimize the radical party's influence. And according to these polls, Jobbik, which enjoyed 15% of the vote in 2010, is now polling somewhere around 7-8%, half of what they polled 3 years ago.[/quote]
Yes, the Magyar Gárda is officially outlawed. Yet they still march in the streets. I am glad to say yes there has been a resurgence of anti-racism, but you have to consider the starting point.


Quote:
Not according to the Antifascist Action interview you posted.
Only in your reading of it, not in what it actually said. What it did say though, and that you obviously picked up on, is that the fascists are unlikely to become of a force capable at taking governmental power...as long as they remain divided. That's quite different to saying they have don't have a momentum.

Quote:
And not according to this article from the Economist, which says that Svoboda is actually polling lower than it was prior to the protest, and that under one in twelve protesters is related to any party, and less than a third of protesters belong to any kind of organization.

Ukraine's Protesters: Who are they? [The Economist]
The Economist wrote:
UKRAINE'S "opposition" or "the protestors" are much-used terms. But who are they? Under one in twelve of those living in the ever-more elaborate tent structures on Kiev's Independence Square are members of any party. Less than a third belong to any organisation whatsoever. The Maidan (which can mean the wider protest movement and those on the square itself) is hard to pin down.

For many demonstrators the opposition parties are merely a slightly-less-bad section of the country's corrupt establishment. Yet tens of thousands turn out every Sunday and listen to the leaders of those parties, who meet with the authorities, and with Western diplomats. The protesters deplore the existing political framework, but they are working within it: they control the politicians, not the other way round. True, but not necessarily comforting: violence broke out on January 19th, despite opposition leaders' calls for calm. Shortly afterwards, the politicians ramped up the rhetoric themselves with threats to "go on the attack".

So who is in control? Pro-government and Russian media use the presence of far-right groups as a way of discrediting the protestors. The claims are exaggerated, but not wholly unfounded. Oleh Tyahnibok's Svoboda [Freedom] party, originally the Social-National party of Ukraine) is the only one of significant size in terms of membership. It has ties to the British National Party and French National Front. It scored 10% in the 2012 election and polls around 5-7% lately. Nowadays its leaders present a moderate image. But Svoboda activists have been criticised for bullying tactics in establishing control over occupied buildings, and critics also highlight ties to the neo-Nazi C14/Sich group.

Most of the organised units of the Maidan Samooborona (self-defence) forces, though, are under the leadership of Andriy Parubiy, a nationalist-leaning MP from Arseniy Yatseniuk's Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) party. These are the volunteers guarding the barricades, wearing protective clothing and carrying makeshift weapons. Most have no affiliation to far-right groups.

Some of Samooborona's more fearsome units, though, belong to the Pravyy Sektor (Right Sector), which formed in November as a coalition of ultra-nationalist groups. It has an estimated 500-700 members, and a good deal of influence, particularly because of the role it played in the violence that started on 19 January. Yet anarchist groups were also at the forefront of those clashes and further back from the front line you could find a cross-section of Ukrainian society, with protesters who have no connection whatsoever to radical circles cheering the fighters on.

Not all the radicals are far-right. Spilna Sprava, a civic movement that drew condemnation and violent retribution in January after occupying three government ministries, is led by Oleksandr Danilyuk, a longtime activist on other issues such as tax. His and other groups have been the subject of speculation that they are Moscow-backed provocateurs. No proof has been offered and the allegations are denied.

A range of civil society groups, NGOs and activists are nowhere near the far-right. Often though, they are just as exposed to violence and harassment as Samooborona units are. The popular Automaidan, which organises motorcade-style protests, has seen one of its leaders kidnapped and beaten, countless cars torched, and one activist killed. Yet car-owning Ukrainians keep signing up.

Centre.ua, whose Chesno (Honestly) project exposes politicians' misdeeds, helps Ukrainian NGOs communicate with foreigners. It is under investigation for money laundering (it says the charge is ridiculous as it has undergone a stringent international audit).

Journalist-activists Ihor Lutsenko and Tetiana Chornovil, both of whom have been severely beaten, sit alongside politicians, singers and other public figures on the Council of Maidan, theoretically a bridge between civil society and the political establishment. Democratic Alliance, a small centrist party that campaigns against corruption, is also represented here. They complain that the council is dominated by the mainstream parties.

Outsiders see a contradiction between these "pro-Europeans" and the radical right. But for Ukrainians it's different. Despite the gulf between liberals and hardcore nationalists, all participants in the movement agree that they are fighting kleptocracy and corruption. The movement was started by those who believe closer ties with the European Union will help escape those problems, and that Russian interference will not. Not all of the far right groups go along with the Europe bit, but that is already a secondary, tactical issue.

Pro-European Ukrainians feel they are allied with far-right groups against a more sinister enemy. The tactics used by the riot police, with six protesters dead, have only strengthened the conviction that drastic times call for drastic approaches.


Another polling of 1,037 Ukrainian protesters by the Democratic Initiatives Foundation found the following:
Responses, In Percent, What prompted you to go to Maidan wrote:
Refusal of Viktor Yanukovych to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union
53.5
The brutal beating protesters on Maidan on the night of November 30, repression
69.6
Calls opposition leaders
5.4
The desire to change the power in the country
39.1
The desire to change life in Ukraine
49.9
Solidarity with friends, colleagues, and relatives
6.2
Collapse of democracy, the threat of dictatorship
18.9
For fun or excitement
2.2
The desire to avenge the government for what it has done to the Ukraine
5.2
The danger that Ukraine will enter into a customs union and return to Russia
16.9
The money I paid (or promised to pay)
0.3
Other (what?)
3.3
Difficult to say
0.5

And also:
Responses, In Percent, Individual or Party participation wrote:
Organized - one of the parties
1.8
Organized - one of the NGOs (or movements)
6.3
Arrived alone
91.9

Only a total of 8.1% of those polled because of NGO, movement, or political party organization. 91.9% of them came as individuals. Most of them are outraged at the actions of the government against the Maidan protesters. 71% of them want the Ukraine to join the EU. Almost half of them want a change of quality of life in the Ukraine. 38% want to restrict the power of the President and return the constitution reform of 2004. 39% wanted Tymoshenko released. Do these really sound like the things the radical right would support? Decreased presidential power, an EU deal, the release of the leader of a large, potential rival party?
From summary of above link wrote:
The vast majority of the square (92%) belongs neither to any party or to public organizations and movements. Party members are 4%, 3.5% belong to public organizations, 1% - to social movements.

In the end, Yanukovych dug his own hole. 70% of the people at Maidan went there because he decided to use excessive force. Hell, Yatsenyuk is suggesting if he is caught he should be tried at the Hague.


Indeed, but I am amazed at how differently you are able to read that data. I have never suggested that the majority of protesters are fascists. I do suggest that the fascists are a threat, something you evidently try to dsipute by telling us that
1) the protest movement are quite capable to defy the establishment politician opposition (like for instance Tymoshenko)

2) Svoboda are a significant both political and armed presence in control of certain areas

3) the armed-self defence groups are under the leadership of a nationalist MP, founding member of the Social-Nationalist Party (later Svoboda)

4) just like the Anti-Fascist Action interview it notes the prominence of Pravy Sektor, this taken together with thefact that most members of the defence committees are not in organized groups should in fact mean they most likely have, with their growing profile, a potential base of recruits that are already working with them to some extent, indeed cheering them on. Again this taken with the described action of Pravy Sector against the anarchists (the only non-nationalist organized group among those who took part in the self-defence mentioned) who have taken part in the self-defence committees...well I guess you don't yet see the problem.
Because like you said initially anarchists are terrible. Or something.

5)The article goes on to note that "Pro-European" Ukrainians have no problem allying with the fascist groups.

But none of this is a problem because hey Pravy Sektor won't win the next election. I am being sarcastic of course, but what you fail to realize is the growth in strength of the fascist groups, through infilitrating what is a genuinely popular movement against a corrupt of repressive government well...that doesn't make the situation better, it makes the situation worse. Suppose the next government, made of the other wing of the corrupt political establishment, fails spectacularly (for instance the idea that an alliance withe the EU will be better or indeed that the Ukraine will be allowed to join the EU in the near future is very very unlikely)? Who will then be in a strong position to act? The fascists will be. Furthermore your myopic focus on parlimentary election results betray you do not actually understand what having armed fascist groups on the streets mean.
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Last edited by Him on Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also to put it another way:
Everything you know about Ukraine is wrong

And yes I realize this goes against the idea that the protests at the Maidan are just a pro-US conspiracy in alliance with fascists...which might be because that has never been my actual position. It's just that I don't, you know, disregard the fascist threat or have much love for the political opposition parties.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
fritterdonut wrote:
Him wrote:
Yes lol at people who take part in the protest movement actually opposing fascists

Are you really going to imply that anarchy is a legitimate political cause and that anarchy is any better than fascism? Advocating no state, no government to maintain social welfare, economic wellbeing and security, lawlessness, the epitome of Might-Makes-Right? It seems to me like both should be called out and told to leave.

Yes, while I am no anarchist, I am seriously going to imply that Anti-fascism is preferrable to fascism. I'd question your strange summary of anarchism too, but that is quite honestly beside the point.

Strange summary? From Merriam-Webster:
Merriam-Webster wrote:
A belief that government and laws are not necessary

Him wrote:
Quote:
Yes, because (the notedly Jewish) Klitschko and the UDAR trying to organize a peaceful ending to the protest by convincing Yanukovych to call elections, and calling for non-violent protest was totally cheering on the right wing Neo-Nazis. Or the newly freed Tymoshenko and her party, who last year was calling for parties to drop the linguistic and historical antagonism and find a way to work towards EU membership... they totally want fascism too, right? All the people waving EU flags, they're totally hardcore Nationalists, right?

Yes, UDAR and Tymoshenko are nationalists politicians. They have been using the fascists quite literally as their footsoldiers, I think there might be lesson from history there in regards to how fascism gains in strength but you know...who cares about history right? That some of the opposition to Russian dominance has turned into a pro-EU position is self-evident but it's hardly so that there is a majority support for joining the EU, nor is it really a very likely scenario to happen in the near future.
Furthermore it is also in part an expression of a "europeanism" based on anti-russian sentiment (which is why for instance Svoboda too speak favourably of joining the EU something that is slightly at odds with many of their far right bretheren in Europe).

I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much every party in the Ukraine is Nationalist in one way or another. And for the moderate non-jingoist parties, that isn't necessarily *wrong* either. The Ukraine spent a good amount of the last century not being a nation, or at least, not a sovereign one. As for not being able to join the EU, your 'Europeanism' argument, and the idea that there isn't a majority for Pro-EU, [CITATION NEEDED].
Him wrote:

Quote:
Firstly, where did I imply I knew better than the people at Maidan? I replied with 2 quotes, from your source, from Antifascist Action at that, from people CURRENTLY AT MAIDAN, who didn't think the Right Sektor was a threat because they didn't have popular support.

Uhm. So you did a text search for "threat" instead of reading the actual interview? otherwise it is quite absurd that you would conclude that they do not see the Right Sector as a threat. I already quoted some of the relevant parts about how the Right Sector defence committes have taken control of some areas, but you know as long as they won't become the government after the next elections I am sure there's no cause to worry about that at all. So let's take the full quote instead of your cropped version:
"S: There’s a whole spectrum of Nationalists represented. They divide themselves into groups with their own symbols. They want support so they don’t use Nazi or fascist symbols so much. They use symbols that are recognizable to other fascistic people, but look innocuous to anyone else. For example there is a special eagle symbol. It’s drawn a certain way, it doesn’t look like anything unless you know the meaning.
No one has any idea how this could turn out, what form a new government could take. The fascist groups don’t have common aims, they know what they’re opposed to, and that they’re opposed to each other, but they don’t all want the same things. If Pravy has positions in a new government that would be really dangerous but that isn’t possible, they aren’t powerful enough.

M: People have these chants: “Glory Ukraine,” “Glory to Heroes,” “Death to Enemies.” But who are these heroes, who are these enemies? I don’t think they have any idea. “Ukraine Above All” is one, just like they used to chant in Germany."

Once again, I see someone from Antifa saying there is a radical right, but they are neither powerful enough to get into government and aren't even capable of collaborating with each other.

Him wrote:
Quote:
Secondly, are you at Maidan? If so, I apologize. If not, then why do you feel you get to criticize me as if I'm an uneducated outsider, when you too are an outsider? You're the one who seems to be implying the Maidan protesters are misguided in their attempt to get rid of the old regime.

Not at all, I think the grievances are legitimate. I just happen to not take your casual approach to the increased militancy and support enjoyed by the far right (nor for that matter the corrupt so called opposition poitical leaders). There's been plenty of media coverage that flat out ignore the prominence of the fascist groups, whereas others even speak favourably of Svoboda.

I'm not taking a 'casual approach' to increased militancy and the far right. I'm taking a statistical approach. The statistics point towards the vast majority of the Maidan not being affiliated with the far right, with the far right SLIPPING in popularity during the protests.
Him wrote:

Quote:
That's incorrect, if by not in government you mean not represented in parliament. A quick look at the Jobbik Wikipedia page says they have 43/386 seats in the Hungarian National Assembly and 2/22 Hungarian seats in the European Parliament. Also, Jobbik has been losing power as of late, as the Jobbik-supported, possibly Jobbik-funded paramilitary Magyar Gárda was outlawed. And extensive searching, including through Amnesty International et al has shown an increase in anti-racism and specifically anti-anti-Roma funding in Hungary and increased EU oversight to prevent racism. So far the only Jobbik bill I've found that has actually passed (they've tabled plenty of ones that were immediately voted down) was about removing the pre-trial holding limit for some crimes and only passed because the majority party Fidesz supported it. In 2010, Fidesz grew more than Jobbik did after the cutting down of the MSZP, and thepaper that statistic is from suggests Fidesz is actively trying to take Jobbik voters in an attempt to minimize the radical party's influence. And according to these polls, Jobbik, which enjoyed 15% of the vote in 2010, is now polling somewhere around 7-8%, half of what they polled 3 years ago.

Yes, the Magyar Gárda is officially outlawed. Yet they still march in the streets. I am glad to say yes there has been a resurgence of anti-racism, but you have to consider the starting point.

Can you please find me evidence of The Magyar Garda still openly marching, because I can't find any. Also, regardless of how Jobbik came in, the statistics show that they're going out.
Him wrote:

Quote:
Not according to the Antifascist Action interview you posted.
Only in your reading of it, not in what it actually said. What it did say though, and that you obviously picked up on, is that the fascists are unlikely to become of a force capable at taking governmental power...as long as they remain divided. That's quite different to saying they have don't have a momentum.

If they remain seperated and continue to decline in the polls, then yes, I'd say any momentum they did have is dying.
Him wrote:

Quote:
And not according to this article from the Economist, which says that Svoboda is actually polling lower than it was prior to the protest, and that under one in twelve protesters is related to any party, and less than a third of protesters belong to any kind of organization.

Ukraine's Protesters: Who are they? [The Economist]
The Economist wrote:
UKRAINE'S "opposition" or "the protestors" are much-used terms. But who are they? Under one in twelve of those living in the ever-more elaborate tent structures on Kiev's Independence Square are members of any party. Less than a third belong to any organisation whatsoever. The Maidan (which can mean the wider protest movement and those on the square itself) is hard to pin down.

For many demonstrators the opposition parties are merely a slightly-less-bad section of the country's corrupt establishment. Yet tens of thousands turn out every Sunday and listen to the leaders of those parties, who meet with the authorities, and with Western diplomats. The protesters deplore the existing political framework, but they are working within it: they control the politicians, not the other way round. True, but not necessarily comforting: violence broke out on January 19th, despite opposition leaders' calls for calm. Shortly afterwards, the politicians ramped up the rhetoric themselves with threats to "go on the attack".

So who is in control? Pro-government and Russian media use the presence of far-right groups as a way of discrediting the protestors. The claims are exaggerated, but not wholly unfounded. Oleh Tyahnibok's Svoboda [Freedom] party, originally the Social-National party of Ukraine) is the only one of significant size in terms of membership. It has ties to the British National Party and French National Front. It scored 10% in the 2012 election and polls around 5-7% lately. Nowadays its leaders present a moderate image. But Svoboda activists have been criticised for bullying tactics in establishing control over occupied buildings, and critics also highlight ties to the neo-Nazi C14/Sich group.

Most of the organised units of the Maidan Samooborona (self-defence) forces, though, are under the leadership of Andriy Parubiy, a nationalist-leaning MP from Arseniy Yatseniuk's Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) party. These are the volunteers guarding the barricades, wearing protective clothing and carrying makeshift weapons. Most have no affiliation to far-right groups.

Some of Samooborona's more fearsome units, though, belong to the Pravyy Sektor (Right Sector), which formed in November as a coalition of ultra-nationalist groups. It has an estimated 500-700 members, and a good deal of influence, particularly because of the role it played in the violence that started on 19 January. Yet anarchist groups were also at the forefront of those clashes and further back from the front line you could find a cross-section of Ukrainian society, with protesters who have no connection whatsoever to radical circles cheering the fighters on.

Not all the radicals are far-right. Spilna Sprava, a civic movement that drew condemnation and violent retribution in January after occupying three government ministries, is led by Oleksandr Danilyuk, a longtime activist on other issues such as tax. His and other groups have been the subject of speculation that they are Moscow-backed provocateurs. No proof has been offered and the allegations are denied.

A range of civil society groups, NGOs and activists are nowhere near the far-right. Often though, they are just as exposed to violence and harassment as Samooborona units are. The popular Automaidan, which organises motorcade-style protests, has seen one of its leaders kidnapped and beaten, countless cars torched, and one activist killed. Yet car-owning Ukrainians keep signing up.

Centre.ua, whose Chesno (Honestly) project exposes politicians' misdeeds, helps Ukrainian NGOs communicate with foreigners. It is under investigation for money laundering (it says the charge is ridiculous as it has undergone a stringent international audit).

Journalist-activists Ihor Lutsenko and Tetiana Chornovil, both of whom have been severely beaten, sit alongside politicians, singers and other public figures on the Council of Maidan, theoretically a bridge between civil society and the political establishment. Democratic Alliance, a small centrist party that campaigns against corruption, is also represented here. They complain that the council is dominated by the mainstream parties.

Outsiders see a contradiction between these "pro-Europeans" and the radical right. But for Ukrainians it's different. Despite the gulf between liberals and hardcore nationalists, all participants in the movement agree that they are fighting kleptocracy and corruption. The movement was started by those who believe closer ties with the European Union will help escape those problems, and that Russian interference will not. Not all of the far right groups go along with the Europe bit, but that is already a secondary, tactical issue.

Pro-European Ukrainians feel they are allied with far-right groups against a more sinister enemy. The tactics used by the riot police, with six protesters dead, have only strengthened the conviction that drastic times call for drastic approaches.


Another polling of 1,037 Ukrainian protesters by the Democratic Initiatives Foundation found the following:
Responses, In Percent, What prompted you to go to Maidan wrote:
Refusal of Viktor Yanukovych to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union
53.5
The brutal beating protesters on Maidan on the night of November 30, repression
69.6
Calls opposition leaders
5.4
The desire to change the power in the country
39.1
The desire to change life in Ukraine
49.9
Solidarity with friends, colleagues, and relatives
6.2
Collapse of democracy, the threat of dictatorship
18.9
For fun or excitement
2.2
The desire to avenge the government for what it has done to the Ukraine
5.2
The danger that Ukraine will enter into a customs union and return to Russia
16.9
The money I paid (or promised to pay)
0.3
Other (what?)
3.3
Difficult to say
0.5

And also:
Responses, In Percent, Individual or Party participation wrote:
Organized - one of the parties
1.8
Organized - one of the NGOs (or movements)
6.3
Arrived alone
91.9

Only a total of 8.1% of those polled because of NGO, movement, or political party organization. 91.9% of them came as individuals. Most of them are outraged at the actions of the government against the Maidan protesters. 71% of them want the Ukraine to join the EU. Almost half of them want a change of quality of life in the Ukraine. 38% want to restrict the power of the President and return the constitution reform of 2004. 39% wanted Tymoshenko released. Do these really sound like the things the radical right would support? Decreased presidential power, an EU deal, the release of the leader of a large, potential rival party?
From summary of above link wrote:
The vast majority of the square (92%) belongs neither to any party or to public organizations and movements. Party members are 4%, 3.5% belong to public organizations, 1% - to social movements.

In the end, Yanukovych dug his own hole. 70% of the people at Maidan went there because he decided to use excessive force. Hell, Yatsenyuk is suggesting if he is caught he should be tried at the Hague.


Indeed, but I am amazed at how differently you are able to read that data. I have never suggested that the majority of protesters are fascists. I do suggest that the fascists are a threat, something you evidently try to dsipute by telling us that
1) the protest movement are quite capable to defy the establishment politician opposition (like for instance Tymoshenko)

2) Svoboda are a significant both political and armed presence in control of certain areas

3) the armed-self defence groups are under the leadership of a nationalist MP, founding member of the Social-Nationalist Party (later Svoboda)

4) just like the Anti-Fascist Action interview it notes the prominence of Pravy Sektor, this taken together with thefact that most members of the defence committees are not in organized groups should in fact mean they most likely have, with their growing profile, a potential base of recruits that are already working with them to some extent, indeed cheering them on. Again this taken with the described action of Pravy Sector against the anarchists (the only non-nationalist organized group among those who took part in the self-defence mentioned) who have taken part in the self-defence committees...well I guess you don't yet see the problem.
Because like you said initially anarchists are terrible. Or something.

5)The article goes on to note that "Pro-European" Ukrainians have no problem allying with the fascist groups.

But none of this is a problem because hey Pravy Sektor won't win the next election. I am being sarcastic of course, but what you fail to realize is the growth in strength of the fascist groups, through infilitrating what is a genuinely popular movement against a corrupt of repressive government well...that doesn't make the situation better, it makes the situation worse. Suppose the next government, made of the other wing of the corrupt political establishment, fails spectacularly (for instance the idea that an alliance withe the EU will be better or indeed that the Ukraine will be allowed to join the EU in the near future is very very unlikely)? Who will then be in a strong position to act? The fascists will be. Furthermore your myopic focus on parlimentary election results betray you do not actually understand what having armed fascist groups on the streets mean.


1. I thought the entire point of the Maidan was to defy the established parties.

2. That statistics (yep them again) continue to say that Svoboda is a lame duck, soon to die out. They've lost 3-4% already over the protest.

3. Yatsenyuk's Fatherland party is a moderate party that successfully ran the country prior to the Party of Regions, and also as far as I can tell Yatsenyuk has no history with Svoboda, other than the early Svoboda being in Fatherland's voting bloc, which isn't really surprising given the size of said voting bloc.

4. Anarchists are the only non-Nationalist self defense guys at Maidan? How about this. Here's my favorite quote:
UkrainianPolicy.com wrote:
Have you encountered, not even outright anti-Semitism, but any condescendence? Do they see you as an outsider?

There was no shadow of such sentiments. I talked since the first days with Right Sector and the UNA-UNSO – with all the people that in peacetime would be unlikely to find common ground. I see myself exclusively as a Jew, and religious. Under my command are dozens of resistance fighters, Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Russians – who do not even try to speak Ukrainian – and we have not encountered a manifestation of intolerance towards each other. All of them have respect for my religion – they already know what I eat, what not to eat, etc. and it has not caused any animosity.
But hey, he's just trying to y'know, keep the peace and shit.

5. Because the fascists are totally the only armed groups on the streets right now. Also, my 'myopic focus on parliamentary election results'? It's solid, quantifiable data. It directly represents public opinion on the far right parties. Show me some hard fast data that says the radical right at Maidan is a serious threat (news articles and interviews don't count, I want numbers) and then I'll change my mind. Until then, no dice.
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Him



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peaceful fascists peacefully rounding up crimean people to, according to my sources so far, peacefully assault, peacefully torture and peacefully execute them.

Also your source there seem to have quite a different take to your own on the potential power of the fascists.

Oh and sorry I was thinking of Andriy Parubiy (incidentally identified as "leader of Maidan self-defense and security" in the ukranianpolicy.com article). Now why was I thinking of Parubiy? Well maybe because The Economist article you quoted said it as well:
Quote:
Most of the organised units of the Maidan Samooborona (self-defence) forces, though, are under the leadership of Andriy Parubiy, a nationalist-leaning MP from Arseniy Yatseniuk's Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) party.

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Him



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Peaceful fascists peacefully rounding up crimean people to, according to my sources so far, peacefully assault, peacefully torture and peacefully execute them.

Also your source there seem to have quite a different take to your own on the potential power of the fascists.

Oh and sorry I was thinking of Andriy Parubiy (incidentally identified as "leader of Maidan self-defense and security" in the ukranianpolicy.com article). Now why was I thinking of Parubiy? Well maybe because The Economist article you quoted said it as well:
Quote:
Most of the organised units of the Maidan Samooborona (self-defence) forces, though, are under the leadership of Andriy Parubiy, a nationalist-leaning MP from Arseniy Yatseniuk's Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) party.

A slight update, so that's now Andriy Parubiy, founding member of Svoboda and Secretary of National Security and Defence Council.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if it's already been mentioned but the Dutch have relaxed the rules for gay Ugandese asylum seekers.

For some reason it's hard to find a good non-dutch article on this. Don't read the comments, they don't awesome.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Protest Leaders are proposing Yatsenyuk for PM. Yatsenuk is from the Fatherland party, and was previously an economic minister, foreign minister, and parliamentary speaker.

Heavily Armed Pro-Russian Protesters have occupied several government buildings in the Crimean peninsula. The Crimean peninsula is the home of Russia's Black Sea fleet. There have also been clashes between anti-Russian and pro-Russian protesters around Crimea.

Putin orders surprise military drills, including some close to the Ukrainian border. This is the largest of such drills that has taken place in recent years.

Things are getting real interesting real fast. Wonder if Crimea is going to go to Russia. Or if Russia is going to go to Crimea.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, The Republican governor of Arizona vetoed Senate bill 1062, which would have potentially let businesses refuse service to LGBT without fear of lawsuits.
Quote:
"My agenda is to sign into law legislation that advances Arizona," Brewer said at a news conference. "I call them like I see them despite the cheers or the boos from the crowd. After weighing all the arguments, I have vetoed Senate Bill 1062 moments ago."

The Republican governor said she gave the legislation careful deliberation in talking to her lawyers, citizens, businesses and lawmakers on both sides of the debate. Her office said it received more than 40,000 calls and emails on the legislation, with most of them urging a veto.
Growing criticism after legislature approved bill

Brewer said the bill "could divide Arizona in ways we could not even imagine and no one would ever want." The bill was broadly worded and could result in unintended negative consequences, she added.

The bill backed by Republicans in the Legislature was designed to give added protection from lawsuits to people who assert their religious beliefs in refusing service to gays. But opponents called it an open attack on gays that invited discrimination.


It also led to this rather funny picture:

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Moor



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, don't you know? "My freedom to swing my religion stops where the other cissexual, heterosexual, man's nose begins."
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My religion says that all black people are descendants of Ham and thus bear the Curse of Canaan. I am free to refuse service to any and all Hamitic people because it's my religion.
Any attempt to protect people from my bigotry by force of law is an infringement upon my freedom of religion!
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christianity is a sin in my religion, so now I can refuse service to anyone I think is Christian, right?

And Jewish and Muslim people can refuse to serve anyone they suspect of eating pork.
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