welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Random News Stories of Note
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 718, 719, 720 ... 805, 806, 807  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1160
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Back up where you say peaceful protest is more effective. Occupy was a massive massive peaceful protest and accomplished....well basically nothing for all the sound and fury and number of people involved.

But if it had come to a riot, what change would have happened? Would the government have just caved and said, "Okay, sure"? Or would people have just condemned the movement, leaving people with a lasting opinion that the movement is wrong, rather than a split country of a lot of people still agreeing with the movement and that things need to change, like we currently have?

There's a time and place for movements, and some protests have to be seemingly ineffectual. The difference is perseverance. If change is going to happen, it's going to happen when people are ready. You can't force all of Americans to give up their comforts to push for the US to suddenly change everything, when we don't know the outcome and it may remove current comforts. The reason Obama responded to the protests in more or less an "I understand, but it's not something that can be feasibly changed" sort of way, is because it's more complicated that simply pressing a magic fix all button. A protest won't change everything. But in the Occupy movement, it further demonstrates that people are unhappy, which DOES affect subtle changes. Even in Wall Street. If you're on notice, you think about it. It's like a racist realizing that his opinion isn't tolerated. He may talk about it in private with other racists, but he's going to try and do something to not look bad in front of others.
Him wrote:
Which opens up the question what constitutes warranted provocation? I don't support riots, but I think it's far more important to understand why they happen rather than just condemn them. And again I think the "anti-Zimmerman riots" seem to be more of a, deliberate, media creation then something actually happening. Oh so some fence got torn down, some roads were blocked and some car window broken or whatever. Please. It's both an attempt to demonise black people and to try and split the pretty massive protest movement.

I agree the media is spinning it badly, and nothing serious has been done by the protesters. They've only gotten out of hand at times because this is such an emotional issue. It's understandable. Of course, I think that's why anti-violence is so important with these types of movements. You don't want the media to BE able to turn it against you, when that's what they're waiting on. When people have to first defend the protests to nay-sayers before they can even engage them about the issues, it becomes hard to further the movement. The people against it in this case are already usually privileged and distant, so if they now feel justified that it's violent, it's even harder to engage them.

But it's a very split debate with no true answer:
http://www.debate.org/opinions/do-nonviolent-peaceful-protests-work

And my opinion from history is one I expressed above about Occupy. If you can have a possible good outcome from violence, then use it. If it's majorly likely it will instead give your enemies something to trash you with, don't. There are times in history when we can make changes. Times when countries get strained and fight North vs South or throw off a dictator. There are also times when people simply aren't ready for a sudden change, and protests instead plant the seed that things need to change, and it happens subtly. People like Rosa Parks would have simply been a headline at the time and wouldn't be still talked about if they'd gotten violent instead. That's not that violence didn't happen during the Civil rights movement. And it didn't necessarily hurt things changing over time. Well...technically that's something else that's JUST my opinion and that could use backed up too, since for all we know, the violence could have prevented us from being farther along now...We'll never know. History doesn't have a control group.

So as for these protests, the fact that despite some violence has happened, the fact that the protest as a whole ISN'T nullifies those arguments. Because, as much as it's gotten out of hand, those are isolated cases. Like I said about the video, that wasn't "hitting"



TL;DR - When it comes to violence vs not, the world is split, because it's philosophy not math. There is no true answer. I think violence is acceptable if it's a reaction to something OR if it is to make a point that can help your cause. In our current protests over Trayvon, it's both and neither. The violence isn't supported by the protests, and what little bits do happen aren't helping public opinion or changing laws; but it's so minimal it doesn't matter, since the movement doesn't support it. A few media outlets try to use it, but since it's not the main focus of the protests, it's nothing more than subtle headlines and something for us to debate about. However, I don't think (in this case) if the protests went violent without provocation from the other side, it would help their cause. I think nay-sayers would just feel validated and nothing would change.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1160
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love that Obama spoke the way he did. He pretty much summed up my thinking on the entire thing perfectly.

In similar news, I'm happy with how our protests happened here in Dallas. It was pretty amazing:
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metro/20130720-hundreds-protest-zimmerman-verdict-in-downtown-dallas-rallies.ece
Very nice to see leaders out, and this quote by the DA was nice to hear:
Quote:
“What happened in Florida will never happen in Dallas County as long as I am DA,” Watkins told the crowd at the City Hall rally, which was organized by local black churches.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3271

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it had turned to a riot? We don't know how it would have played out, things like that can play out in any number of ways. Certainly their peaceful protest didn't do much.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1160
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, maybe so. Personally, I think if it'd turned into a riot, police simply would have come in and shut things down, arrested people, and almost everyone would think completely negatively of the whole thing with the momentum more-or-less gone as an effect, partially because I still feel everyone can't expect immediate results out of every protest. But really, who knows. That's just one person's opinion. Everyone has their own. That's why I like discussion. Your point is equally valid. Different life experiences can drive drastically different views in wonderful shades of gray.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3271

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I come from a city where there's ALWAYS a peaceful protest going on. Currently it's just the terrain of downtown and basically ignored entirely by the city as a whole.


The local free alternative paper picks up the story but no other media in the city does, because no one believes these protesters are actually going to do anything about their problem than sit in a drum circle, chanting slogans and shouting "shame" at others.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3128
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My city has a peaceful protest every single Friday.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1160
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same here. I don't think any of them have an effect if the public isn't interested. You may get a few locals, but overall change is slow. That's why timing seems to be everything. It's only in huge media cases like this trial that the protests get the spotlight after. I think that's why it's gotten so big. As people saw it in the media and the focus on it, more and more get out and make their voice heard for once.
_________________


Last edited by Adyon on Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6020
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ATTENTION BRITISH FESTERS, YOU HAVE HAD A BABY

DID YOU NOT KNOW? I AM AFRAID THAT YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE KNOWN

NOW YOU KNOW

EVERYONE WILL KNOW. EVERYONE MUST PARTAKE OF THIS GLORIOUS NEWS EVENT

MAINSTREAM MEDIA AWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17040
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'd link to the original story, but the Aspen Times seems to make you jump through a lot of hoops to see stuff - so i'll link an nytimes editorial.

long story short, scalia is saying insane things again.

Quote:
Scalia opened his talk with a reference to the Holocaust, which happened to occur in a society that was, at the time, “the most advanced country in the world.” One of the many mistakes that Germany made in the 1930s was that judges began to interpret the law in ways that reflected “the spirit of the age.” When judges accept this sort of moral authority, as Scalia claims they’re doing now in the U.S., they get themselves and society into trouble.


scalia, of course, has never in any way been an activist judge. never. totally uninfluenced by the "spirit of the age", let alone the power brokers of the age.

seriously, we need to get some sort of mental health check on the supremes. because i really think scalia is loose from his moorings.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17040
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

also, what _has_ happened to all our british 'festers? have they been camped out in front of the hospital all this time, or what?
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9456

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They live off the government and they're having another baby?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4881
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I come from a city where there's ALWAYS a peaceful protest going on. Currently it's just the terrain of downtown and basically ignored entirely by the city as a whole.


The local free alternative paper picks up the story but no other media in the city does, because no one believes these protesters are actually going to do anything about their problem than sit in a drum circle, chanting slogans and shouting "shame" at others.


Eugene: 'tis a silly town.

I think both peaceful and violent protests have place and purpose, but Occupy would have failed either way because it had no structure, no message, and no purpose. It was doomed to never accomplish anything because no one had any bloody idea what it was supposed to accomplish or how it was going to do it.

Which reminds me, I have a couple friends who still deserve "I told ya so"s on the matter.
_________________
The older I get, the more certain I become of one thing. True and abiding cynicism is simply a form of cowardice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6020
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
I think both peaceful and violent protests have place and purpose, but Occupy would have failed either way because it had no structure, no message, and no purpose. It was doomed to never accomplish anything because no one had any bloody idea what it was supposed to accomplish or how it was going to do it.


which we would've known had we taken the time to go back and look at SDS, Occupy's equivalent in the 60s

as usual, history laughs at us
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3271

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Arc Tempest wrote:
I think both peaceful and violent protests have place and purpose, but Occupy would have failed either way because it had no structure, no message, and no purpose. It was doomed to never accomplish anything because no one had any bloody idea what it was supposed to accomplish or how it was going to do it.


which we would've known had we taken the time to go back and look at SDS, Occupy's equivalent in the 60s

as usual, history laughs at us


Hey...I was laughing as it was ongoing.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4174
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'We're racist and proud': Fury as group stages counter-demonstration against 'Justice for Trayvon' marches

One of the Fabled Chambers Brothers Is Attacked on Stage After Dedicating a Song to Trayvon
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 718, 719, 720 ... 805, 806, 807  Next
Page 719 of 807

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group