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Lasairfiona
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9386
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::
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 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: HDTV discussion |
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So I am getting a graduation gift and I plan to ask for an HDTV. Cool huh? But I have no experience with TV buying, much less HD. So, how many of you have an HDTV or want one?
This started in the gaming thread but I am hoping that enough people have HDTV experience that I can get a good idea about which one I should get. Starting with andrew's post from the other thread:
| andrew wrote: | Depends. How much do each of the following things matter to you?
* visual tearing (distortion of image in fast moving objects)
* edge fidelity (related to visual tearing, but specifically regarding pixelation & tearing of the edges of objects)
* black quality (a lot of LCDs show up This wasn't a finished line. What were you trying to say?
* brightness
* viewing angle
* resolution (do you want/need 1080p?)
* screen size
* speaker quality
* # and type of inputs, esp. DVI and HDMI
* media readers, USB ports
* price
* warranty length & terms
That should about cover the basics.
(I apologize if some of the parenthetical explanations are unnecessary, but I figured I'd cover my bases rather than rely on an extended back'n'forth.) |
So now that I have done a bit of research, I can get back to this post.
The first two are fairly important but I watch my tv from at least 6 ft away (even when I play video games) so if you can't tell from there it doesn't bother me. I am still not quite sure how these things affect my viewing experience anyway. Have a good link to look at?
I like a strong black as sometimes I watch movies in the dark and I don't want to be distracted by the gray areas that should be black.
I keep my tv rooms fairly bright so brightness of the tv is a concern.
Viewing angle is important.
According too this article, 720p is enough for me. It seems that most tvs are not only being sold at 1080p. Maybe that means I can find a 720p on sale.
40-42 in should be enough. I need to double check this but that is an estimation of the size that should be enough for me.
Speaker quality can be okay. I plan to eventually get a decent surround sound system but my ears don't hear a lot of the problems many people hear.
Inputs - uh, I plan to buy a ps3 but that is about it. I'll need component for my ps2 but other than that and cable, I don't need any more than that.
Media readers are not important.
Price - under $1,500 would be nice but it is a gift so up to $2000. If I can keep the price of the tv down, I'm going to request a new stand as my current one isn't quite wide enough. It will do in a pinch though.
Warrenties are nice.
Okay, is there any brand that is better than another? Any I should avoid?
_________________
Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael |
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Falkonn
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Beneath the pile of babies~
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: |
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There's probably a great deal of people here that know a ton more about this then I do, but I just recently got one so I thought I would throw out my .02.
We were sitting around eating breakfast one day when my father in law was visiting. The phone rings and my wife answers. It's her mother. This is what I hear...
"Our tv is fine mom."
"It's okay, our tv is fine."
"Don't worry about it, the tv we have now is fine."
"Okay, hold on a minute he's finishing breakfast."
Two minutes later she hands the phone to her father and 20 minutes later they are out the door on the way to best buy to pick everything up.
An hour after they got off the phone they came in the back door with a 40" flat screen Sony Bravia, a PS3, Uncharted:Drake's Fortune, spiderman 3, and Superbad. This was all part of the deal for $1800. That seems like a ton of money to me, but after looking at other prices it seems like a good deal.
The picture on the tv is amazing, there is a huge difference between our old tv which wasn't hd at all, let alone 1080p. Plus it came with a PS3, which you said you wanted to get anyways. =) |
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andrew
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 4495
Location: the raging sea
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The first two are fairly important but I watch my tv from at least 6 ft away (even when I play video games) so if you can't tell from there it doesn't bother me. I am still not quite sure how these things affect my viewing experience anyway. Have a good link to look at? |
Not off the top of my head, no - but it's something you'll likely be able to pick out in comparing the picture between various TVs in a store. You're basically looking for all the same things as in a high quality computer monitor.
| Quote: | I like a strong black as sometimes I watch movies in the dark and I don't want to be distracted by the gray areas that should be black.
I keep my tv rooms fairly bright so brightness of the tv is a concern.
Viewing angle is important. |
All of this being important means you're ruling out the vast majority of the inexpensive brands, e.g. Westinghouse, Olevia, Vizio, Sceptre, Insignia, et. al., as they tend to have pretty horrifying resolution.
| Quote: | | According too this article, 720p is enough for me. It seems that most tvs are not only being sold at 1080p. Maybe that means I can find a 720p on sale. |
Yeah, 720p sets are distinctly cheaper in the same size and brand with similar features. Keep in mind that you're going to notice a much more pronounced difference between resolutions as the TV gets larger.
Based on the above and your budget, I'd shoot for a Sony Bravia or Sharp Aquos LCD set at about 40-42"; you should expect to pay $1,200 to $1,500 or so for one that caps out at 720p. If you're going to go for any larger than 42", I'd seriously consider looking at a 1080p set, especially since you're looking at buying a PS3. The Bravia & Aquos sets have excellent color fidelity, high contrast ratios, rich blacks, good refresh rates, excellent viewable angles. You set them up and turn them on and immediately feel like you've purchased a quality product. |
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Guccipiggy
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| I don't really know about HDTVs (we don't even have digital tv here) but Andrew is seriously a marketer's dream. |
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nathan
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6269
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: |
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Don't do it! You watch too much television already. Buy 200 books instead.
And a chinchilla.
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All our final decisions are made in a state of mind that is not going to last. - Marky Mark Proust |
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Diggie
Joined: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 155
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: Re: HDTV discussion |
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| Lasairfiona wrote: | * visual tearing (distortion of image in fast moving objects)
* edge fidelity (related to visual tearing, but specifically regarding pixelation & tearing of the edges of objects)
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Tearing is when a frame gets displayed that is part of the old frame and part of the newly decoded frame because the decoder can't keep up or isn't synchronized with the refresh of the display. This should not happen on an HDTV connected using one of its digital inputs, but it can happen if you're using your PC to play the video and the graphics drivers on the PC have vertical sync turned off. In this case just turn vertical sync on in the graphics driver control panel.
I'm not sure that "Edge fidelity" is even a real term, but my guess is that it's a reference to the little lines that can sometimes be seen around the edges of objects when they move. In fact, this is not the TV's fault. The problem is that some content is encoded as interlaced (i.e. it's 720i or 1080i), and other content is encoded as progressive (i.e. it's 720p or 1080p).
You've probably heard that traditional televisions scan out all the even numbered lines of a single frame to the screen first (e.g. lines 0, 2, 4, and so on) and all the odd lines a split second later (e.g. lines 1, 3, 5, and so on). This is interlaced scanning. Because the frame is split into these odd and even "fields" that get scanned out at slightly different moments in time, each field actually has a slightly different picture contained within it. So instead of say, 30 frames per second, you actually get 30 frames * 2 fields = 60 fields per second. Because there are more fields being scanned out each second motion appears smoother, but there is of course only half as many lines in each field as there would be in a normal progressive frame, so there is a little less detail overall.
Interlaced video looks fine on an interlaced display, because it's being displayed the way it was captured. On a progressive display (lines are scanned out as 0,1,2,3,4 and so on) you have the problem when playing interlaced content that now you're forced to try to display two fields, which we know are captured at slightly different moments in time, on a screen which is being scanned out in one pass. This is why you get jaggies around the edges of moving objects, because in the even field of the frame the object is in one position, and in the odd field of the frame the object is in another position, but the progressive TV scans out both fields together.
So which is better, progressive or interlaced? Well, there is more you need to know. Some TVs are 1080p30, meaning they can scan out 30 progressive frames per second, and some are 1080p60, meaning they can scan out 60 progressive frames per second. The later is obviously better, but more expensive. How a progressive display deals with displaying interlaced material is somewhat down to the processor built into the TV, but the main story is that jaggies are only a problem when you're trying to render interlace content on a progressive screen.
Lots of sports content is interlaced for the aforementioned "smoother motion", but as 1080p60 becomes more common that may eventually change.
| Quote: | | * black quality (a lot of LCDs show up |
Look for the stated contrast ratio, e.g. 500:1, 1000:1, the bigger the ratio the better the definition.
More lumens is usually better, but consider where you're going to be placing the monitor. For example, I've been at friends houses who put their TV in a place where there is a lot of sunlight. Here you need a very bright display or it's just too hard to see it. On the other hand, I turn the brightness on the LCD in my bedroom down as far as I can because it's not in the sun and I don't like it hurting my eyes in the evening.
Bigger is better, but if you get the opportunity examine this for yourself in a store, I never trust the stated figure.
Aside from brightness and viewing angle, try to get a demo of a display where you can look at color stability. Color can vary across an LCD monitor, and it's very common that colors look different at the sides or corners of a display than they do in the middle. I find that effect to be very annoying, and I recently ordered some LCDs that had that problem bad, it was so noticeable that I couldn't stand to use them. Check that out while you're looking at the viewing angle.
| Quote: |
* resolution (do you want/need 1080p?)
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You both want and need 1080. Do not settle for a 720 display.
720 = 1280x720 = 921600 pixels
1080 = 1920x1080 = 2073600 pixels
That's 2.25x the resolution. And it looks awesome. Don't get me wrong, if you buy a 720 display it's still going to be better than regular TV, but for the "wow" factor 1080 is where it's at.
Just don't buy a pocket-sized 1080 display
This one is probably less of an issue, because it's something that you can supplement after you buy the TV and you have some cash to spend on some speakers. At the end of the day, speakers built into a TV are going to be "good enough" for watching things, but there will come a time when you're craving some sharp, well defined sound, and powerful floor shaking bass, and the built-in speakers just can't deliver. Heck, the built-in speakers in my TV sound like ass the second you pop in a music DVD. Make sure your TV has some decent audio output connectors, and you're good.
| Quote: |
* # and type of inputs, esp. DVI and HDMI
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If you do end up purchasing a cheaper 720 device, check it's HDCP compliant also. With newer devices it shouldn't be a worry.
| Quote: |
* media readers, USB ports
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Remember you're buying a TV.
| Quote: |
* price
* warranty length & terms
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Specifically, find out how long you've got to return it and if there are any caveats with the return policy. You don't want to get stuck with a TV with several stuck or dead pixels and then find out they won't accept returns because of that, it happens in some places. Make sure to ask.
| Quote: | | According too this article, 720p is enough for me. |
Don't do it. See above. I would probably choose a 1080i or a 1080p60 (maybe not a 1080p30, though).
| Quote: | | Inputs - uh, I plan to buy a ps3 but that is about it. I'll need component for my ps2 but other than that and cable, I don't need any more than that. |
Then you must check for HDCP, because the PS3 requires it for HDMI connections.
| Quote: | | Okay, is there any brand that is better than another? Any I should avoid? |
You need to check reviews from other sites for this information, everyone will have an opinion but only big review sites will have enough opinions to form a meaningful consensus. |
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WheelsOfConfusion
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10741
Location: Unknown Kaddath
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: |
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I shopped around town for weeks and did some research online long before I settled on an HDTV. In the end I actually found the "perfect" TV at Wal-Mart for >$900 after taxes.
I wanted a relatively high contrast ratio (anything less than 1200:1 and I wouldn't buy it, and nobody should settle for less than 1000:1), overall good picture quality, and plenty of input options. I wound up with this 32" Phillips, with which I'm very happy. I also watch TV from about six feet away, and this one is plenty big enough for that (if you switch the aspect ratio to 4:3 for standard size media and signals, it's like a simulated 25 inch screen). The ever important contrast ratio is 3200:1, which was the best I saw at the time for that size, and especially for that price. It also looked better than almost all the other TVs they had on display, even though it "only" goes up to 720p.
It's got 2 HDMI connections, 2 RCA-style analog inputs, S-video of course, but it's lacking a DVI connection. Like most HDTVs you'll find nowadays, it has a built-in digital tuner so you're covered when 2009 comes along. Also it's got the Energy Star label.
Actually, looking at the Phillips support site they've finally updated the firmware. Now I have something to do tomorrow.
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andrew
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 4495
Location: the raging sea
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Philips' LCDs are kinda cool because of Pixel Plus. Some people who watched my old one didn't like it, though: they felt that it made moving objects look like cutouts sliding across a piece of paper. |
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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 8540
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Definitely, definitely go to a store... as Diggie mentioned, nothing beats standing there staring at a TV. When we bought our TV we went, found one that looked amazing, went home and did research, went back and looked at it again, then hunted around for a price. We ended up buying at Best Buy for one reason: 36 months no interest on the horribly ass-reaming Best Buy card. We had the TV paid off in 18 months, however, and so saved our asses.
We finally decided on one of the new Samsung lines. I hated the glossy finish, but the picture is amazing. It's two years old now, so it's not even worth bragging about, but I love the thing. I hear good things about the newer Sharps... they have the flattest LCD on the planet, if that means anything to you. In case you were leaning that way, plasmas use more electricity than LCDs, unless you get one of the new Panasonics (which, according to them, don't have burn-in issues anymore). As it is, the average LCD can consume 3-400kWh per year, which is roughly on par with your refrigerator. Plus ~250kWh if you have a digital cable box or satellite. LG and Sharp typically come in near the top for low power consumption. The difference between the highest and lowest consumption is something like $130/year in extra electricity. Not to mention carbon footprint. However, never ever trust anything on the box. If it says its Energy Star compliant it just means it uses less than 0.9 watts in standby mode. That's all. Some of the Energy Star TVs use 220W in "on mode" - like leaving a food processor on.
Anyway... most of your major brands these days have retardedly wide viewing angles - colors stay true well past the point where you can tell what is going on. Contrast is absolutely key. LCDs are typically pretty bright, but keep an eye on lumens anyway - another good reason to visit a brick-and-mortar place: they're often well lit. |
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Guccipiggy
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Diggie's post is so sexy.
(Yup, you ask about HDTV and I analyse the answers.) |
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Lasairfiona
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9386
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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This is all really, really helpful. Part of what I get is going to depend on when my dad buys the tv (sales and all that) though I did find a toshiba on sale at best buy. However, actually picking one is going to have to wait until I can go to STL where there is a store that actually has a bunch of lcd flat screens.
Also, the cnet reviews site has been really helpful too. For the LCDs, they have a power consumption list at the bottom of the review which makes me happy. I found a panasonic plasma I really liked but that power consumption thing is a problem.
_________________
Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael |
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Diggie
Joined: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 155
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Lasairfiona wrote: | | I found a panasonic plasma I really liked but that power consumption thing is a problem. |
Do you know the power consumption of the display it's replacing? Maybe there is less difference than you think.
I think the next big drop in power consumption is going to happen at the end of the year when OLED displays become popular, but they'll probably be at the high end of the price range until manufacturing becomes large scale (even though in theory they're cheaper to produce). Sony has previously showed one off with a 1000000:1 contrast ratio, which kills all current LCD displays by a factor of ~1000. CNET has some info on that too.
It sucks buying tech items, the moment you buy them they go out of date!
Anyway, if you want to check out the power consumption of your current gear check the manufacturers homepage, or buy a Kill-A-Watt ($25), which are actually cool to have around anyway since you can tell how much power any of your gadgets is actually consuming. |
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Dro
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3763
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Invest the money for 5 years so you can afford a OLED tv. |
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WastedGecko
Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 367
Location: It's gonna blow, woah woah woah
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| Samsung have a really nice unit for a good price, and I like the look of the Toshibas. When you are comparing the panels in a shop, make sure you're watching live broadcasts and not a dvd. Movies are going to look fantastic on any LCD because they'll be using good quality cables, but you can't hide quality issues with live tv. |
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Diggie
Joined: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 155
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| WastedGecko wrote: | | Movies are going to look fantastic on any LCD because they'll be using good quality cables, but you can't hide quality issues with live tv. |
Which reminds me, don't let someone sell you expensive cables for your HDTV. If you're using the digital inputs the cheap cables are just as good as the $100 ones. |
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