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The cops shooting people elephant in the room
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 418

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:38 am    Post subject: The cops shooting people elephant in the room Reply with quote

It's a thing. People should talk about it.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People Elephants are people too!
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10987
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Texas legifuckors, you've hit an all new low: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/GV/htm/GV.2051.htm#2051.044

http://www.chron.com/news/politics/texas/article/Bill-restricting-rights-of-citizens-to-videotape-6130903.php

Also, I think OK was talking about this (the murder charge I mean): http://mic.com/articles/114888/17-honest-thoughts-from-a-black-man-after-watching-that-walter-scott-video
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasn't there another state that also wanted to restrict citizens' ability to film cops? _brilliant_ answer to the problems of murder-by-cop - just preemptively forbid collecting any evidence!

amazing how all these politicians who are so big at keeping government out of our lives still manage to come up with ways it is absolutely essential to have government controlling our lives.

it will be interesting to see what happens in the walter scott case. this one clearly tipped the balance - the evidence was just too plain. i thought the tamir rice case would tip it - video PLUS killing a child ... maybe that will be reopened. but this has _got_ to start moving the white perception that the police don't use excessive violence against minorities. i hope so, anyway.
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Mr Gary



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
this has _got_ to start moving the white perception that the police don't use excessive violence against minorities. i hope so, anyway.


Outsider perspective from the UK, we ALL have the perception that US cops are doing this left right and center. Sorry, Youessians.
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Drooling Fan Grrl



Joined: 02 Feb 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEEEDS MOR COMMA!!!

,
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Gary wrote:
mouse wrote:
this has _got_ to start moving the white perception that the police don't use excessive violence against minorities. i hope so, anyway.


Outsider perspective from the UK, we ALL have the perception that US cops are doing this left right and center. Sorry, Youessians.


we seem to have a pretty profound black-white divide.

of course US white people seem to have a remarkable ability to delude themselves (and i say that as a US white person).
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
wasn't there another state that also wanted to restrict citizens' ability to film cops? _brilliant_ answer to the problems of murder-by-cop - just preemptively forbid collecting any evidence!

amazing how all these politicians who are so big at keeping government out of our lives still manage to come up with ways it is absolutely essential to have government controlling our lives.


No arguments here. I can't imagine this proposed law surviving legal challenge, as other similar laws are falling by the wayside all across the country.

Quote:
it will be interesting to see what happens in the walter scott case. this one clearly tipped the balance - the evidence was just too plain. i thought the tamir rice case would tip it - video PLUS killing a child ... maybe that will be reopened. but this has _got_ to start moving the white perception that the police don't use excessive violence against minorities. i hope so, anyway.


I thought the same would happen with John Crawford III, and Thomas Kelly, and Eric Garner, at least in regards to police being held accountable for their actions when their actions are caught on film. I'm holding out hope for this case, but the police who beat Thomas Kelly to death were all acquitted after being arrested and standing trial.
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Kyle Casey



Joined: 23 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is just baffling to me how this keeps happening. Not the cops killing minorities in epidemic numbers, that part I get. What I mean is how the cops keep getting away scott free. Hell, even when they're arrested, it almost never gets to trial because grand juries just let them walk before a trial even happens.

All I know is that something has to give. Something has to change, and change in a fundamental way before we can move on, and the police can start building back trust within their communities, if they ever had said trust to begin with. What that thing is that must change, I'm not sure. But something has to, and soon.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as i recall, it came out in one shooting that the district attorneys don't like to prosecute cops, because they rely on them to build cases. and that takes you straight to the whole "blue wall" thing, where cops stand up for other cops, even (apparently) when the other cops do something blatantly illegal and immoral.

so we really need to rebuild police culture. first, by insisting that a wrongdoer is a wrongdoer, even if he is wearing a uniform; and second, by making it clear that you don't solve crimes by just arresting/convicting whoever is handy, because that puts innocent people in prisons while the guilty ones are still out there committing crimes. (sorry, that seems to gone into a separate rant.)

but yes - change is necessary. the police can't expect trust until they prove themselves trustworthy, and to do that, they have to stop facilitating illegal behavior by other cops.
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Caimsen



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe its just cause i am not from the Usa and that is why i have a different thinking about Guns and how they are a Part of the daily Life.
But i think that one of the main Reasons for all this Problems is, that because so many People carry Guns around with them and dont hesitate to use them?
I mean, if a Policeman has too worry that there is a high Chance that there will be a shooting at his Patrol, isnt it logical that he is rather nervous and draws his Gun rather quick? Of course, shooting at a Person who runs away who has no Weapon is a complete different Topic.

One of my Problems is, i have just a superficial knowledge about this. I know that many People in the Usa love their Guns, its rather easy to get one and (as far as i know) its no big Deal to carry one with you around. Even that you use a Gun looks rather normal from what i have seen till now.
I mean, i have seen People on my Facebookaccount who proudly posted that their 6 Year old Girl has shoot her first Racoon.
Just to explain it. In Austria you have to get a Weapon owner certificate if you want to have a Gun or a Riffle at Home. You are normaly not allowed to have more than 3 Weapons, exept you are a Hunter/ Sports Marksman/ Policeman/ in the Army. And if you want to use them, you need a firearms certificate. You only get such a Card after you visit a Psychologist and must be irreproachability.
Beside that, we dont have just a few Sports Marksman and most Hunter dont shoot Animals for the Fun.

*sigh* I think its just a Culture Thing and wont change very soon.

By the Way, is it true that the training to become a regular Policeman is only about 16 Weeks?
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caimsen wrote:
By the Way, is it true that the training to become a regular Policeman is only about 16 Weeks?

That's the Academy -- military basic training is 13 weeks or less -- and most departments require either four years military or a four year criminal justice related degree, although many departments make exceptions or have less strict hiring guidelines.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't know about training, it probably depends on the jurisdiction. police departments are purely local - for example, i live in san diego county, but not the city of san diego. city of san diego has a police force, which is completely separate from the carlsbad (another s.d. county city) police force, and so on. so each department can set up its own hiring standards, training, etc.

as to the gun culture.....even in the u.s., it wasn't always so extreme. despite what the movies tell you, even in the Wild West it wasn't common for people to carry guns in the street - usually, when you came to town you had to check them with the local sheriff. because yeah - lots of people carrying guns around makes it more dangerous, especially for law enforcement types, whose job it is to deal with the robbers and the drunks and suchlike people who might have a propensity to shoot said guns.

however, since 9/11, and especially since the takeover of the White House by that Muslim Terrorist Communist America-hater (who by sheer coincidence happens to be black, but of course racism has nothing to do with it Rolling Eyes ) ....americans have started to feel like they really really have to be able to defend themselves. against (apparently) anything up to and including tanks. the National Rifle Association (NRA), which actually started as a voice for gun training and safety was taken over by lunatics a while back and has actively encouraged this paranoia. and they have a strong political presence (i.e., lots of money and lots of people who will write angry letters and back them up with votes) - so very, very few politicians will go against them. as a result, we have lost bans on assault weapons and armor-piercing bullets, we have a seen a major loosening of requirements to buy guns and to get concealed carry permits....and a lot more people who shouldn't be are carrying much bigger guns in places they shouldn't carry them. so yeah - i don't at all blame the police for being a little jumpier about the possibility of someone being armed.

on the other hand, 1) they are supposed to be trained to deal with bad situations; 2) they do have things like body armor; and 3) a lot of the recent cases have been things like the guy running away from the cop with nothing in his hands and no one around for him to endanger. and even without shootings, there is lots of evidence of police discriminating against people of color (so arresting them for things a white person might just be warned for, using more violence in arresting them, etc.) - all of which erodes the community's trust in law enforcement. so....still some room for improvement in police behavior.

but yeah, gun control. that's another issue where there used to be rationality, and now things are just falling apart.

(i should mention -there have always been guns and more general gun ownership in more rural places, where there are a lot of people who hunt (for meat, not sport), and where farmers use them for things like killing varmints. but that's kind of a different thing.)

but yeah. good ol' (not that clear) 2nd amendment, baby!

(also, it's really not _all_ americans. some states still have tougher laws, and some communities are really not tolerant of open carry.)
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Last edited by mouse on Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mr Gary



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caimsen wrote:
Maybe its just cause i am not from the Usa and that is why i have a different thinking about Guns and how they are a Part of the daily Life.
But i think that one of the main Reasons for all this Problems is, that because so many People carry Guns around with them and dont hesitate to use them?
I mean, if a Policeman has too worry that there is a high Chance that there will be a shooting at his Patrol, isnt it logical that he is rather nervous and draws his Gun rather quick? Of course, shooting at a Person who runs away who has no Weapon is a complete different Topic.

One of my Problems is, i have just a superficial knowledge about this. I know that many People in the Usa love their Guns, its rather easy to get one and (as far as i know) its no big Deal to carry one with you around. Even that you use a Gun looks rather normal from what i have seen till now.
I mean, i have seen People on my Facebookaccount who proudly posted that their 6 Year old Girl has shoot her first Racoon.
Just to explain it. In Austria you have to get a Weapon owner certificate if you want to have a Gun or a Riffle at Home. You are normaly not allowed to have more than 3 Weapons, exept you are a Hunter/ Sports Marksman/ Policeman/ in the Army. And if you want to use them, you need a firearms certificate. You only get such a Card after you visit a Psychologist and must be irreproachability.
Beside that, we dont have just a few Sports Marksman and most Hunter dont shoot Animals for the Fun.

*sigh* I think its just a Culture Thing and wont change very soon.

By the Way, is it true that the training to become a regular Policeman is only about 16 Weeks?


Hi, as a fellow European, you are correct that we appear to have a very different relationship with guns to that of Americans. It's likely that you and I have very different relationships with gun laws too (I'm British).

The main point I worry about - and I know American's are also concerned about - is not having/not having guns (whether amongst private citizens or in their police forces) but about the disproportionate number of cases in which those guns have been used to kill black people.

It's a reet pickle, is what it is, is what it is.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe its just cause i am not from the Usa and that is why i have a different thinking about Guns and how they are a Part of the daily Life.
But i think that one of the main Reasons for all this Problems is, that because so many People carry Guns around with them and dont hesitate to use them?
I mean, if a Policeman has too worry that there is a high Chance that there will be a shooting at his Patrol, isnt it logical that he is rather nervous and draws his Gun rather quick? Of course, shooting at a Person who runs away who has no Weapon is a complete different Topic.


It's a fairly cohesive single topic. Cop culture is definitely in its current state with significant parts of it owing to the dramatically armed state of the US populace. You couldn't disarm cops until you disarmed americans in general, which should happen to an extent seen in places like Australia.

All of it ties back into issues of systematic violence, corruption within police districts, exploitative systems and patterns of distrust towards black people and communities, and our absolutely insane gun legislation issues.
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