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I give up (Scores die in Israeli air strikes)
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: I give up (Scores die in Israeli air strikes) Reply with quote

Both sides are bleeding dry yet no one is willing to come to sense, cf this report.

What irks me more than anything is that the main reason for this outbreak are politics (for both sides).
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Israel's policy has been one of disproportional force, for a long long long long time.

They just basically say that if you chuck a rocket into Israel, they'll bomb the fuck out of wherever they think an enemy leader is camped out.

It's supposed to work as a sort of operant conditioning, like, 'you would think they would learn to stop chucking rockets at us' but it doesn't. They just keep lobbing rockets and shit into israel. So israel keeps bombing the fuck out of palestinians. And the palestinean militants know that a good way to keep the whole place incensed is to camp out, you know, around a shit-ton of civilians, so civilians always die.

So in the end nothing works. even if israel was 'kind' enough to use only proportional force, they would just be under attack more often. and if the hamas guys didn't shield themselves with civilians they would just get killed more efficiently and not create enough opprobrium for their cause. both sides lose whether they try to be better human beings or not.

what a total ratfuck
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shit. hadn't heard about this.

man, forget hamas et al. not learning - you'd think israel would have noticed by this time that this technique doesn't seem to be working for them.

so much for the season of peace, love and understanding.
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Forlorn Devil



Joined: 21 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe they know that technique isn't working for them and using the strikes as an excuse to rid themselves of some pesky Palestinians and say Opps. I think they do have the technology, given by the US, to make surgical strikes that would limit civilian casualties. Sorry but I've grown suspicious of the good guy image of Israel that is sold to us. These aggressive attacks has made them, seem to me, no better then those they are fighting. Each side is working towards eliminating each other. Just Israel is being careful to not go too far, so they could keep playing the victims. Not very PC of me I know.
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kame



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forlorn Devil wrote:
Maybe they know that technique isn't working for them and using the strikes as an excuse to rid themselves of some pesky Palestinians and say Opps. I think they do have the technology, given by the US, to make surgical strikes that would limit civilian casualties. Sorry but I've grown suspicious of the good guy image of Israel that is sold to us. These aggressive attacks has made them, seem to me, no better then those they are fighting. Each side is working towards eliminating each other. Just Israel is being careful to not go too far, so they could keep playing the victims. Not very PC of me I know.


It is a testament to Israel's ability to spin events that people would even consider them to be the good guys. Their management of the West Bank would give Himmler a stiff woody.

The idea that they would stop bombing the shit out of them if they gave up the right to defend themselves makes me want to laugh until I cry.
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Uncle Taylorbell



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
shit. hadn't heard about this.

man, forget hamas et al. not learning - you'd think israel would have noticed by this time that this technique doesn't seem to be working for them.

so much for the season of peace, love and understanding.


Yeah, the Israelis and Palestinians aren't being very Christian, are they?

There isn't much I can say aside from, obviously, this is all very fucked up.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, good point. hanukkah, after all, celebrates a victory over an enemy. and eid just pretty much says you got through ramadan.

still - you'd think they'd at least acknowledge it's too cold to fight, this time of year.
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dazedb42



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nothing like a good missile blast to sit around to keep your warm though.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Israel's policy has been one of disproportional force, for a long long long long time.

They just basically say that if you chuck a rocket into Israel, they'll bomb the fuck out of wherever they think an enemy leader is camped out.

It's supposed to work as a sort of operant conditioning, like, 'you would think they would learn to stop chucking rockets at us' but it doesn't. They just keep lobbing rockets and shit into israel. So israel keeps bombing the fuck out of palestinians. And the palestinean militants know that a good way to keep the whole place incensed is to camp out, you know, around a shit-ton of civilians, so civilians always die.

So in the end nothing works. even if israel was 'kind' enough to use only proportional force, they would just be under attack more often. and if the hamas guys didn't shield themselves with civilians they would just get killed more efficiently and not create enough opprobrium for their cause. both sides lose whether they try to be better human beings or not.

what a total ratfuck


Being vague is one of my usual failings.

By politics, I meant local ones, Israel is due for another election in the next few months, and Pres. Abbas was supposedly due to announce Palestinian presidential & legislatives ones in January. So both sides has to look good, strong and all manly.

There is always a start, be it a terrorist attack, a new settlement, a precision strike against this or that terrorist to generate this vicious circle. Both sides are guilty of this at one time or another (that is out of memory, I should be able to back this up with some net-digging).

Ratfuck is too nice a word for this kind of mess.
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Mr_Moustache



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So why the fuck is america still giving money to isreal?

Why the fuck, when it comes to isreal, the international community seems to be blind, stupid and deaf?

Any other country building illegal walls, building illegal settelments, bombing the fuck out of people and denying food water and medicine to civilians, would have been dealt with much, much harshly by the international community. All we do now is asking them "if, it isnt any hassle, they might consider to stop bombing people as much as they do now."
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Last edited by Mr_Moustache on Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because the Jews control the media and have brainwashed the American populace into demanding the head of any politician that says what Israel is doing is bad. Also, they have all the money so they buy the politicians and get them to send over money that way. Plus, if we didn't give them money despite the terribleness of their actions, we'd be saying the Holocaust was okay.

Okay, I don't believe any of that, but I'd rather get it out there as a joke so we can continue with the real discussion instead of having it be thrown in, derailing things. Honestly though I don't know why we give them as much aid as we do, given their actions.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The notion of "disproportional force" bothers me. Would we have been okay with it if Israel retaliated by sending one or two missiles back on a weekly basis?
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gally912



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, Israel routinely allows lots of humanitarian aid into Gaza. A few days ago there was an article in the NY Times about it. (and of course, google it. news stories date back every so often for the past year) Unfortunately, said major air raid happened the very day that article went to print.

Secondly, Sam is also totally right on the way Hamas conducts its operations. It also routinely feeds false intelligence to increase the number of civilian casualties Israel inflicts. Precision weaponry matters not when you are informed that an apartment complex is an enemy stronghold. However, Israel has also been known to use costly and dangerous SpecOp raids to limit those very numbers- when a single 155 round could produce the same effect.


And sam is also totally right in terms of the "niceness" aspect of it all. Both sides are damned if they do, damned if they dont.

However- I would venture to guess that Israel would stop bombing if Hamas stopped firing rockets. (In fact, IIRC Israel refused to extend the cease-fire because of those rocket attacks- which had been going on through out the duration.)
I do not believe that hamas would stop if Israel did nothing.
So in my mind, Israel has the right to defend herself. And hell, after the last 60 years they've had, I'd be ready for some 'disproportional force' myself.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear god no, gally. NO NO NO NO NO
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gally912



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
Oh dear god no, gally. NO NO NO NO NO


lolwat? Half my post was saying how right Sam was. Razz
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