Sinfest

[Sam the Eagle]

Both sides are bleeding dry yet no one is willing to come to sense, cf this report.

What irks me more than anything is that the main reason for this outbreak are politics (for both sides).
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Meu aerobarca esta cheoi de enguias

[Sam]

Israel's policy has been one of disproportional force, for a long long long long time.

They just basically say that if you chuck a rocket into Israel, they'll bomb the fuck out of wherever they think an enemy leader is camped out.

It's supposed to work as a sort of operant conditioning, like, 'you would think they would learn to stop chucking rockets at us' but it doesn't. They just keep lobbing rockets and shit into israel. So israel keeps bombing the fuck out of palestinians. And the palestinean militants know that a good way to keep the whole place incensed is to camp out, you know, around a shit-ton of civilians, so civilians always die.

So in the end nothing works. even if israel was 'kind' enough to use only proportional force, they would just be under attack more often. and if the hamas guys didn't shield themselves with civilians they would just get killed more efficiently and not create enough opprobrium for their cause. both sides lose whether they try to be better human beings or not.

what a total ratfuck

[mouse]

shit. hadn't heard about this.

man, forget hamas et al. not learning - you'd think israel would have noticed by this time that this technique doesn't seem to be working for them.

so much for the season of peace, love and understanding.
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aka: neverscared!

[Forlorn Devil]

Maybe they know that technique isn't working for them and using the strikes as an excuse to rid themselves of some pesky Palestinians and say Opps. I think they do have the technology, given by the US, to make surgical strikes that would limit civilian casualties. Sorry but I've grown suspicious of the good guy image of Israel that is sold to us. These aggressive attacks has made them, seem to me, no better then those they are fighting. Each side is working towards eliminating each other. Just Israel is being careful to not go too far, so they could keep playing the victims. Not very PC of me I know.

[kame]

[Uncle Taylorbell]

[mouse]

well, good point. hanukkah, after all, celebrates a victory over an enemy. and eid just pretty much says you got through ramadan.

still - you'd think they'd at least acknowledge it's too cold to fight, this time of year.
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aka: neverscared!

[dazedb42]

nothing like a good missile blast to sit around to keep your warm though.
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(_**_) *note to self, insert bottle at other end.

[Sam the Eagle]

[Mr_Moustache]

So why the fuck is america still giving money to isreal?

Why the fuck, when it comes to isreal, the international community seems to be blind, stupid and deaf?

Any other country building illegal walls, building illegal settelments, bombing the fuck out of people and denying food water and medicine to civilians, would have been dealt with much, much harshly by the international community. All we do now is asking them "if, it isnt any hassle, they might consider to stop bombing people as much as they do now."
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When life gives you lemons, some people make lemonade. I just eat them and make a sour face.

[CTrees]

Because the Jews control the media and have brainwashed the American populace into demanding the head of any politician that says what Israel is doing is bad. Also, they have all the money so they buy the politicians and get them to send over money that way. Plus, if we didn't give them money despite the terribleness of their actions, we'd be saying the Holocaust was okay.

Okay, I don't believe any of that, but I'd rather get it out there as a joke so we can continue with the real discussion instead of having it be thrown in, derailing things. Honestly though I don't know why we give them as much aid as we do, given their actions.

[Michael]

The notion of "disproportional force" bothers me. Would we have been okay with it if Israel retaliated by sending one or two missiles back on a weekly basis?

[gally912]

Firstly, Israel routinely allows lots of humanitarian aid into Gaza. A few days ago there was an article in the NY Times about it. (and of course, google it. news stories date back every so often for the past year) Unfortunately, said major air raid happened the very day that article went to print.

Secondly, Sam is also totally right on the way Hamas conducts its operations. It also routinely feeds false intelligence to increase the number of civilian casualties Israel inflicts. Precision weaponry matters not when you are informed that an apartment complex is an enemy stronghold. However, Israel has also been known to use costly and dangerous SpecOp raids to limit those very numbers- when a single 155 round could produce the same effect.


And sam is also totally right in terms of the "niceness" aspect of it all. Both sides are damned if they do, damned if they dont.

However- I would venture to guess that Israel would stop bombing if Hamas stopped firing rockets. (In fact, IIRC Israel refused to extend the cease-fire because of those rocket attacks- which had been going on through out the duration.)
I do not believe that hamas would stop if Israel did nothing.
So in my mind, Israel has the right to defend herself. And hell, after the last 60 years they've had, I'd be ready for some 'disproportional force' myself.
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Things are seldom as they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.

[Willem]

Oh dear god no, gally. NO NO NO NO NO
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attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose

[gally912]