welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

I give up (Scores die in Israeli air strikes)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 14, 15, 16
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
gally912



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 661
Location: Afghandi-land. Like candy-land, only not as nice.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
So wait, if I think your morality is immature because it is dictated by a pathological adherence to openly fallacious reasoning, it's elitist.

sooooooo uh people who demand that a moral code be, at minimum, falsifiable, are elitist.

wow

Read again.

I said that your opinion that morals meat a the logical standard is an elitist view, because few people base their ethics on whether or not they are logical.
_________________
Things are seldom as they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 2275
Location: 192.168.0.1

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gally912 wrote:
@Sam
Take the edge off war was certainly not the point. A war of survival, which this is will end in either the destruction of one of the two parties, or the two parties coming together for peace through mutual benefit or casualty exhaustion. Morality is an issue weighed on a case by case issue. Hiroshima and Nagasaki vs the Armenian Genocide? Both inflicted a high number of civilian casualties, but again, circumstances and intent both need apply to determine the ethics of the situation.
I'll let the insult go as a slide of indignation, for I would be disappointed; I hold you to a higher standard then say, Mr.Mustache(**)


It is impossible to reconcile "war", "survival" and "morality" in the same sentence. We all understand your point of view and your rhetoric. What you're not grasping is we all reject it for various reasons.

If I agree that one genocide isn't comparable with another, I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that it's still one too many and is no ground to excuse another. Talking about it from a detached perspective shows a complete lack of empathy or a twisted set of morals, that reason in the either/or mind, found mostly in 6y old(*).

There are, alas, still enough fresh mass graveyards in the world no one can claim being ignorant about them. We can be jaded or unconcerned, not ignorant anymore. There are some that decide to do something about it, even if for a moment of their lives, most will feel guilty. Feeling guilty is the least thing to do.

If you decide to be causual about it which you did few posts above then, willingly or not, you are beyond the pale as far as Im concerned, that assuming the unlikely possibility you're not a 6y old with little grasp of morality. Next step after is to start treating the other side not as humans but as numbers. I can actually offer a good example without making a Godwin here : Read some reports from common soldiers working in Unit 731.


(*) We could go, once more, through the way events unfolded this time. Pointless.


(**)And please, I demand that you lower me to Moutsache's level.

@Moustache : I should be back in Europe from this Fall onward, remind me I owe you a beer. Fall would be perfect for a Kriek or 5.
_________________
Meu aerobarca esta cheoi de enguias
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9456

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gally912 wrote:
I said that your opinion that morals meat a the logical standard is an elitist view, because few people base their ethics on whether or not they are logical.


Maybe in the clone vat you were spewed from this is true, but shit yo I had cogent ethics by the time I was in middle school.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gally912



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 661
Location: Afghandi-land. Like candy-land, only not as nice.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:

It is impossible to reconcile "war", "survival" and "morality" in the same sentence. We all understand your point of view and your rhetoric. What you're not grasping is we all reject it for various reasons.

If I agree that one genocide isn't comparable with another, I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that it's still one too many and is no ground to excuse another. Talking about it from a detached perspective shows a complete lack of empathy or a twisted set of morals, that reason in the either/or mind, found mostly in 6y old(*).
Thing is, only one of those was a genocide. Genocide, by any means, in a horrible act. It's eliminating a race or ethnic group of people from the earth. The atomic weapons, despite killing more innocents than the Armenian genocide, provided the means to end the war- and most likely with a smaller death toll than a ground invasion.
I dont see it as a lack of empathy or twisted morals to be detached. It is a day to day occurrence in this world. Most people are horrified to hear about it, but will simply shake their heads when you mention the several going on in Africa at this very moment.

Quote:

There are, alas, still enough fresh mass graveyards in the world no one can claim being ignorant about them.
Unless you happen to be an Iranian president. Zing!

Quote:
We can be jaded or unconcerned, not ignorant anymore. There are some that decide to do something about it, even if for a moment of their lives, most will feel guilty. Feeling guilty is the least thing to do.
People would complain a lot less if they even for a moment really thought about what went on in the world. Alas, people in this country get upset about intellectual property law.

Quote:
If you decide to be causual about it which you did few posts above then, willingly or not, you are beyond the pale as far as Im concerned,
Speaking rationally about the potential outcomes?

Quote:

Next step after is to start treating the other side not as humans but as numbers. I can actually offer a good example without making a Godwin here : Read some reports from common soldiers working in Unit 731.
Uncle Joe Stalin had it right about large numbers of death. I believe there is a numbness at a certain point. I can't personally claim to be numb to death and killing, but I can say it does get easier as time goes on. I can't imagine what its like leading innocents to their death, nor have I ever been accidentally or inadvertently responsible.

But I think I can understand the psychology of it, even as I am repulsed by it. At the same time, situations can force that abhorrence into pragmatism. If the chips are down and the time comes when its necessary, for survival or to avoid a greater catastrophe, then its whats needed to be done.

Israel, however, has not reached that point. It has lowered itself into not caring. It hasnt lowered itself to its enemy yet. (you'll know when that happens when tactical strikes turns into carpet bombing. ) And, to me at least, the lesser of two evils is the more ethical choice.

Quote:

(**)And please, I demand that you lower me to Moutsache's level.

Naw, I prefer to keep things civil for the most part. Why sling mud?
_________________
Things are seldom as they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mr_Moustache



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 9123
Location: The thing in itself that is Will

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its Moustache people Sad

Ohh, and sam, I love kriek ! Its was my first ever whole bottle of beer ! Ahh...the memories to the beginning of an age Smile
_________________
When life gives you lemons, some people make lemonade. I just eat them and make a sour face.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
picturesofsky



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3072
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shut it, Moutsache!
_________________
Ironically, Halen's one of the few people here I wouldn't worry about terrifying my friends and family. In my head he ends every real life conversation stroking his chin and saying, "well yes, that sounds reasonable."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr_Moustache



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 9123
Location: The thing in itself that is Will

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think thats german. Perhaps. Like oat sack.
_________________
When life gives you lemons, some people make lemonade. I just eat them and make a sour face.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 2275
Location: 192.168.0.1

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_Moustache wrote:
Its Moustache people Sad

Ohh, and sam, I love kriek ! Its was my first ever whole bottle of beer ! Ahh...the memories to the beginning of an age Smile


tyop, sorry.
_________________
Meu aerobarca esta cheoi de enguias
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 2275
Location: 192.168.0.1

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gally912 wrote:


Israel, however, has not reached that point. It has lowered itself into not caring. It hasnt lowered itself to its enemy yet. (you'll know when that happens when tactical strikes turns into carpet bombing. ) And, to me at least, the lesser of two evils is the more ethical choice.



As someone else pointed out before, should we cheer them up for not lowering themselves to terrorist level yet?.

Once more, if the reasoning is between choosing the lesser of two evil, my vote goes to what is plan C?.

I will cheer Hamas up if they finally started to lift themselves up from being terrorist to mainstream political parties. In the same way, I'll scorn any democratic government that is painting itself in a corner saying 'either you're with us or you're against us'. Vladimir Illyich was wrong the first time, and there is no reason for that flawed reasoning to be right ever since.
_________________
Meu aerobarca esta cheoi de enguias
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4174
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pro-Israel demonstration in New York.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 2275
Location: 192.168.0.1

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resurrecting this thread for today came out UN's report on last winter battle in Gaza as it's the better place to. It's not a pleasant read, for both sides, cf BBC. The words of war crimes are not bandied lightly by any official body, least of all one like the UN.

The report itself is a wall of text here, which I intend to read at a later stage.

My comments here are twofold.

First it's the second time in recents month that UN is trying to stand for it's charter, both here and in Sri Lanka. The kneejerk reaction from the Israeli side was to be expected, but it'll be hard now to remain in denial and try to portray the other side as the only culprit. Let's see where this goes.

Second, the report itself. Everyone who worked with official knows they love nothing more than the sound of their voice, or reading their prose, so you can bask in their glory or praise their e-penis to orgasm. Still, 575 pages is way beyond the norm. If anything else, it shows the report was thorough.
_________________
Meu aerobarca esta cheoi de enguias
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
11bulletstop



Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 377
Location: Ft. Carson, CO

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it seems the US and the Iraqi govts are both guilty of warcrimes then. Some of the things I read in the article - haven't started the report - are taken straight from the pages of Iraqi Counter-Insurgency 101.

And I am unapologetic. Within weeks of building concrete barrier walls around certain - extremely hostile - neighborhoods the populace started dropping dimes on every Mahdi Militia Motherfucker they could. Those walls created an information geyser that saved god knows how many lives, including those of the civilians walled up, but more importantly me, my buddies, and my soldiers.

Dispraportionate force? I don't even know what that means. Is he mad it wasn't a fair fight? War isn't about fairness, it's about winning. And I can assure you that the soldiers at the bottom of the totempole are quite happy that they continue to live thanks to superior firepower in Iraq/Palestine.
_________________
Peace, One Love
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5125
Location: Iowa City

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That doesn't mean that those who gave the orders aren't war criminals.
_________________
Scire aliquid laus est, pudor est non discere velle
"It is laudable to know something, it is disgraceful to not want to learn"
~Seneca
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 14, 15, 16
Page 16 of 16

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group