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American Healthcare Rant 2: Die Harder
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've asserted a few times now that you know of good arguments against UHC (and further, ones that haven't been stated here), and you've had honest inquiries as to examples of those arguments. Why will you not provide examples? We really are interested in what's convinced you, even if we don't agree (believe it or not, we can be persuaded to change our opinions, given new information).
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andrew



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
You've asserted a few times now that you know of good arguments against UHC (and further, ones that haven't been stated here), and you've had [b]honest inquiries as to examples of those arguments. Why will you not provide examples? We really are interested in what's convinced you, even if we don't agree (believe it or not, we can be persuaded to change our opinions, given new information).

How many times do I have to say no before you'll quit wasting your breath?

Look at how quickly you assumed several things. You assumed that 1) any of these arguments are my own and 2) that any of these arguments has convinced me, neither of which is the case.
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew mad! andrew smash thread!


es un chiste
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Last edited by Mizike on Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CTrees



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
You assumed that 1) any of these arguments are my own


ctrees wrote:
You've asserted a few times now that you know of good arguments against UHC

Darkman wrote:
You did say you had heard intelligent arguments against universal health care though.


We have not assumed that they were your own. What several of us are interested in, is what arguments you've heard which you've thought had merit (even if they didn't convince you; I admit I was perhaps assuming a little much there) which had not been brought up here.

Several posters on this forum have used the tactic of mentioning that they have had evidence, or similar, of something relevant to a discussion, and subsequently refusing to produce it, even to completely honest curiosity. Refusal without reason usually leads to disparaging opinions of said posters, because it really is not a valid debate technique. Why are you stubbornly planting yourself in this group, when we are not being adversarial?
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andrew



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you assume an argument has convinced me, how are you not assuming the argument is my own? That's, uh, kind of what constitutes being persuaded.

"Stubbornly planting" myself? I responded to UTB's comment in the other thread because I was incredulous that people had not heard any good arguments (edit)against(/edit) NHC when they are quite literally everywhere: less than 10 seconds in Google can produce a pretty dramatic list of these things. It quickly became clear that people aren't unfamiliar with these arguments, they've just dismissed them as bad because they're unable to distinguish between "good" and "something I agree with." I feel no compulsion to cite "evidence" that pretty much anyone with 10 seconds of time can find and ignore themselves because I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything; I've made no argument, and I'm refusing to make one, because this issue is as dead to me as last year's flowers. When I realized what was going on, I stopped posting and left the thread. I can't see how I could possibly be clearer.

My posts in this thread had nothing to do with how I feel about NHC until Darkman brought it up again, trying to draw me into a debate that I have no interest in participating in. You continue to insist that I should hold myself accountable for my "debate technique," when none of my posts are an attempt at debating anything.


Last edited by andrew on Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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kame



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Natural Selection
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop being such a cunt, Andrew.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
I responded to UTB's comment in the other thread because I was incredulous that people had not heard any good arguments in favor of NHC


wait - i'm totally confused now. what do you mean by NHC? is this the same as UHC (universal health care)? and were you saying you knew arguments for or against it? because i thought you had previously said against, and sam has given a whole big page full of for, so wanting more for seems unnecessary, at this point.

and while you may consider the issue dead and buried, the fact of the matter is, it is still very much not accomplished, and there are a lot of people still arguing against it. (i myself would say the redistribution of wealth argument is not, in fact, a good one, because people who current can afford to pay for health care, either by insurance or out-of-pocket, are already having their wealth redistributed to pay for health care for the poor (since hospitals, etc., just add to what they charge the solvent folks to pay for the insolvent). it would need a whole big analysis, of course, but i can't help but think paying for health care in poor people when they are at the prevention/early stage is cheaper, even overtly spread to everyone, then paying for their care in the e.r. when they are really sick (even though you don't really notice how much it is adding to your own insurance care).

but of course, the bottom line is the same as it always is - if the thread bugs you, just ignore it. you know the rest of us are going to keep ranting and raving, even if it seems like a non-issue to you.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

National Health Care.
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andrew



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
andrew wrote:
I responded to UTB's comment in the other thread because I was incredulous that people had not heard any good arguments in favor of NHC


wait - i'm totally confused now. what do you mean by NHC? is this the same as UHC (universal health care)? and were you saying you knew arguments for or against it? because i thought you had previously said against, and sam has given a whole big page full of for, so wanting more for seems unnecessary, at this point.

That would be me making a mistake. ^_^

Quote:
but of course, the bottom line is the same as it always is - if the thread bugs you, just ignore it. you know the rest of us are going to keep ranting and raving, even if it seems like a non-issue to you.

Which is exactly what I did, until Darkman and then CTrees brought it up again. My early posts in this thread had nothing to do with being for or against NHC, because I have no interest in talking about it. I'm sorry for posting in this thread at all.
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DeD CHiKn



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Samuel, I DISAGREE! *drives away quickly*
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Forlorn Devil



Joined: 21 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want NHC/UHC, whatever you want to call it. If my posts in the last thread seemed like I was arguing against it, that was not the case.

I was simply saying that the paperwork doctors were complaining about wasn't that bad, judging by the experiences of family who work in health care. But I have to agree that their are a lot of evil bastard insurance companies who make life difficult for doctors and patients. I guess I'm fortunate enough to live in an area covered by good companies. Never have been denied any claims for any tests or visits. My insurance, and the insurance my family have, covers everything. I've never seen a job in this area that didn't offer Health insurance as part of their benefits, well maybe the Car Wash but they pay illegals under the table.

And also was making a point that insurance companies shouldn't bare all the blame, greedy doctors who know how to milk the system are to blame as well. Not all doctors are innocent victims.
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Darkman



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
Which is exactly what I did, until Darkman and then CTrees brought it up again. My early posts in this thread had nothing to do with being for or against NHC, because I have no interest in talking about it. I'm sorry for posting in this thread at all.


Im sorry if you feel i put you on the spot. I remembered you're previous comments and thought you might want to enlighten us. I wasn't trying to drag you out for a round of everyone gang up on Andrew I was just honestly asking your opinion on the subject. Most decent arguments i've heard against nationalized health care Sam has thoroughly refuted in his many many many posts on the subject. The rest are mostly SOCIALIZMZ OH NOES!!!11 I thought you might have some better ones. If i put you on the spot its only because i thought you were the best chance of an intelligent dissenting view. Sorry again.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forlorn Devil wrote:
I've never seen a job in this area that didn't offer Health insurance as part of their benefits


where on earth do you live?
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Mr_Moustache



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canada?
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