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American Healthcare Rant 2: Die Harder
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17101
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkman wrote:
If i put you on the spot its only because i thought you were the best chance of an intelligent dissenting view.


see, that's true. one can't imagine you, andrew, considering one of the nutcase arguments that come up as anything to be considered 'good'. (by nutcase, i mean the sort of thing ags, god love him, was wont to pull from the rush limbaugh/fox line of "reasoning".) discussions of a national health care plan can end up being self-reinforcing here, and then we all end up confused as to why the whole rest of the world doesn't get it, when it clearly makes no sense, and there are no good arguments against it!.
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thewaitersitsondown



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2673
Location: The walrus was Paul

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_Moustache wrote:
Canada?


In Canada health insurance is like being offered invididually wrapped tic tacs. It sounds awesome until you realise tic tacs don't come individually wrapped, and they are actually full of tiny hidden razorblades, which are a metaphor for a lack of proper funding.
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Forlorn Devil



Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 863
Location: In his own reality

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Forlorn Devil wrote:
I've never seen a job in this area that didn't offer Health insurance as part of their benefits


where on earth do you live?


New Jersey. Even the guys who push carts in the supermarket get health insurance. I've searched through many jobs in this area to get out of the previous job I had and everyone listed health insurance as a benefit. I dunno anyone who doesn't have access to Health insurance or some kind through their job. I guess this area is well covered. I could be wrong and there are more jobs that don't have that benefit, just have yet to see one. When I first heard of the problem of people not having coverage I was ignorant to the problem and thought it was only illegals and people without jobs.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

around here, you generally have to work at least half-time to get health insurance (come to think of it, if my university funding dropped under half time, _i'd_ be off the insurance). a lot of places (like grocery stores) apparently deliberately keep their part-time hourly employees just under half-time so they don't have to provide benefits. a lot of places, you have to work full time for at least 6 months (as a new employee) to qualify for health insurance. and a lot of small businesses just can't afford it for their employees at all.

if what you say is true, you are in a seriously good place.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forlorn Devil wrote:
I dunno anyone who doesn't have access to Health insurance or some kind through their job.


Do you mean their job automatically provides health insurance, or do their jobs provide the opportunity to purchase health insurance through their employer?

The distinction is monstrously important.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeD CHiKn wrote:
Oh Samuel, I DISAGREE! *drives away quickly*


*watches you drive away for three pages*

*then drive back, to make sure that the direction you are subsequently driving is away*

Man he sure did drive away. and it only took until now!
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Forlorn Devil



Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 863
Location: In his own reality

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
around here, you generally have to work at least half-time to get health insurance (come to think of it, if my university funding dropped under half time, _i'd_ be off the insurance). a lot of places (like grocery stores) apparently deliberately keep their part-time hourly employees just under half-time so they don't have to provide benefits. a lot of places, you have to work full time for at least 6 months (as a new employee) to qualify for health insurance. and a lot of small businesses just can't afford it for their employees at all.

if what you say is true, you are in a seriously good place.


Well that is true for here to. You have to be a full time employee. But in this area you couldn't live on a part time job, part time is defined as less then 16hrs a week. If there is someone working part time its a kid who has coverage through their parents insurance till they turn 21 or someone with a spouse who has a full time job with coverage. Part time jobs are just for extra money, can't live on it. Cost of living here is insane.

And most places require 3-6 months of work time before getting on their plan. But my company I currently work for put me on right away despite the rules. Point is there is coverage available. Just don't change jobs every 3 months.

I worked for a small company, 12 people, and we had coverage there as well. The co-pay sucked, $50 for primary care visits $150 for emergency rooms HMO, but considering they only took $15 a week from my paycheck for insurance and it covered every test I had I couldn't complain.

My current plan takes $50 a week out of my paycheck and copay is 20 for primary care and $100 for emergency rooms HMO, but I make much more money and its a better health plan with more doctors who take it. Also have coverage through my wife's PIP family plan which costs her $60 bucks a week for everyone, me, her and our two kids.

Quote:
Do you mean their job automatically provides health insurance, or do their jobs provide the opportunity to purchase health insurance through their employer?


The employer pays into it and you don't need to ask for it, that is what I have now and from previous jobs.


Last edited by Forlorn Devil on Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it the result of some sort of legislation? Do even wal-mart employees get it?
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Forlorn Devil



Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 863
Location: In his own reality

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Is it the result of some sort of legislation? Do even wal-mart employees get it?


Dunno about the laws, did find this information. Which talks of the Individual Health Coverage program and Small Employer Health Benefits Program.

And something about a Mandated Health Benefits Advisory Commission Act. Which I haven't read into much yet to know what it is. So I dunno if its relevant yet. But it has an interesting title. Smile
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kamineko



Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds more like New Jersey is a good state to live in rather than it being an example of a higher trend.

I know in CT there are very few part time jobs that offer any health insurance, or benefits at all.

I'd rather have health care than a 25c boost to minimum wage, honestly.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Forlorn Devil wrote:
I dunno anyone who doesn't have access to Health insurance or some kind through their job.


Do you mean their job automatically provides health insurance, or do their jobs provide the opportunity to purchase health insurance through their employer?

The distinction is monstrously important.



Monstrously important indeed. After taxes, because he has a wife and 2 daughters on his plan my manager takes home around 20 dollars every two weeks, this being paid 10.50 an hour prior to tips.
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Yorick



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forlorn Devil wrote:
I dunno anyone who doesn't have access to Health insurance or some kind through their job.

I don't, and haven't for over a decade. Only one job in that time (these were all full-time, except one) had it available, but you had to have certain status, and when I got that status I found that the cost was nearly 1/4 of my take-home, and there was still a co-pay involved.

I could hack an out-of-pocket insurance if it were less than $100 a month and a ten dollar co. Which doesn't exist, that I've found.
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TIAB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One reason why I'm incredibly reluctant to support/endorse UHC in the US is that the current approach to "medicine" is appalling. We currently throw pills at everything, frequently trading one large symptom for a laundry list of other symptoms. We aren't creating pills that cure, we're creating pills that necessitate more pills. If someone needs treatment for migraines, they are prescribed medication with side effects that are addressed by other drugs. It's either poor guesswork, or deliberate attempts to sell more drugs, and either way, not something I can support. UHC is a great ideal, but one that must be addressed very carefully to actually be of any real value in this country. There are many steps between here and there, and I'm just not sure what the right ones are.
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TB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: I don't care, I'm still free.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TIAB wrote:
One reason why I'm incredibly reluctant to support/endorse UHC in the US is that the current approach to "medicine" is appalling. We currently throw pills at everything, frequently trading one large symptom for a laundry list of other symptoms. We aren't creating pills that cure, we're creating pills that necessitate more pills. If someone needs treatment for migraines, they are prescribed medication with side effects that are addressed by other drugs. It's either poor guesswork, or deliberate attempts to sell more drugs, and either way, not something I can support. UHC is a great ideal, but one that must be addressed very carefully to actually be of any real value in this country. There are many steps between here and there, and I'm just not sure what the right ones are.

But that seems to be a completely separate issue. Sure, our methods of health care aren't always that great, but they're still significantly better than nothing and should be available to whoever happens to need them.

Especially when you consider conditions that are cheap to fix if handled early, but bankruptingly expensive (so the rest of us end up footing the bill) if caught later or not immediately treated properly.

First make sure everyone can get health care, and then work to make sure that health care is as good as possible. Probably an important part of the second half would be to stop granting companies monopolies on their research...
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Eiden



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 401

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
The sun is still in the sky in Seattle, but I know it's going to set; I can even reasonably predict what time it will happen. I consider the issue of the sun setting dead and buried.


1. We cannot meaningfully impact the setting of the sun
2. We don't want to impact that process anyway
3. It is not an issue we care about directly influencing, we do not run the sun's schedule as a matter of policy and we know this

In contrast

3. We can meaningfully impact the process of moving towards U.H.C.
4. Many people want to impact that process
5. It is an issue people care about involving how we set about determining matters of policy


andrew wrote:
If someone views NHC as a negative despite its potential benefits because it's gov't sanctioned redistribution of wealth, there is no possible argument because they are right in their assessment even if you disagree with their conclusion.


These people who do not want a or any system that works excellently because they feel morally compelled to follow a "taxes r wrong" approach to the exclusion of making exceptions where taxes make things work really do need to be blessed by God with a chunk of land where they can go and try out their social experiment to their hearts content.

We will still be there when it collapses. We will welcome them back. We will tell them "Come, huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore".
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