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Is there a God?
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fjafjan



Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its hard basing justice in facts

EDIT: and you still havn't told me why putting her in prison helps anyone in any way
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fjafjan wrote:
EDIT: and you still havn't told me why putting her in prison helps anyone in any way

Well for one thing, if she's an alcoholic it'll be a lot harder for her to fall off the wagon during treatment.
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kame



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 2565
Location: Alba Nuadh

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, prison hooch will cost you a lot of cigarrettes Smile
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fjafjan



Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is true, but at the same time the negative influences of prison might make you more likely to get inovolved in other criminal activities/drug use, and if AA sessions are made mandatory, for example on probation, then that advantage is pretty much lost.

EDIT: and i first thought hooch meant something else Razz
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fjafjan wrote:
that is true, but at the same time the negative influences of prison might make you more likely to get inovolved in other criminal activities/drug use, and if AA sessions are made mandatory, for example on probation, then that advantage is pretty much lost.

No it isn't. Going to AA meetings is not the same as being guaranteed not to drink. Take it from somebody whose junkie older brother has been through them.
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fjafjan



Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is lso true, but did said junkie have an actual desire to stop drinking/being junkie?
I think killing your own cihld is pretty much motivation as you'll ever get to stop drinking, but as said, that isn't founded on fact.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fjafjan wrote:
That is lso true, but did said junkie have an actual desire to stop drinking/being junkie?

Yes.
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fjafjan



Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just lost some of my faith in AA. I should have known i couldn't trust an organisation sharing name with a product like the ever exagerating batteries. Still, i think your drinking leading to your childs death is a much stronger motivator than anything else.
if she drink any alcohol the put her in prison or detoxinating clinic untull she is 'clean' and then let her out.
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MsFrisby



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: a quiet little corner of crazy

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where was this baby until 4am when she came back to the homeless shelter? Did she have it out with her while she was getting plastered? Don't you think stumbling around with a four month baby on the streets is negligent all by itself?

Let's say we fast forward 5 years if the baby hadn't drowned. She's got them a place to live in the projects, but still has her alcohol problem. Her little child gets left home alone at night while she goes three houses down the road to party. She leaves a candle burning, or a toaster shorts out, or she left the oven on and a dishtowel catches on fire. The apartment fire kills her child.

It's still tragic, but the fact remains that someone is DEAD and it's directly due to the thoughtless actions of the person who was supposed to be caring for them.

And you'd be surprised at the number of mothers who don't give a rat's ass about their kids. I personally have known crank addicts who were 7 or 8 months pregnant and had never been to the doctor their entire pregnancy. They didn't quit smoking crank or drinking booze. They were negligent and could care less about that child they made before it was even born. So don't talk about some mystical mother instinct.
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G. Looking Out



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
all you have is unfounded opinion.


Unfounded opinion in a thread called "Does God Exist?"

Perish the thought.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in regard to a topic so tangential as to be separate rather than sub-

perish yerself
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
you can't claim that the familial relationship creates an opportunity to get away with murder.

would it be right not to send her to jail because she killed her only child, whether or not she is sorry? she sure can't do that again.

just spay her and send on her merry way?


A defense lawyer could argue that sending her to prison after such trauma could constitute a cruel punishment. I personally don't think prison would be cruel but I dunno...I gues I'm feeling sorry for fjan.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MsFrisby wrote:
Where was this baby until 4am when she came back to the homeless shelter? Did she have it out with her while she was getting plastered? Don't you think stumbling around with a four month baby on the streets is negligent all by itself?

Let's say we fast forward 5 years if the baby hadn't drowned. She's got them a place to live in the projects, but still has her alcohol problem. Her little child gets left home alone at night while she goes three houses down the road to party. She leaves a candle burning, or a toaster shorts out, or she left the oven on and a dishtowel catches on fire. The apartment fire kills her child.

It's still tragic, but the fact remains that someone is DEAD and it's directly due to the thoughtless actions of the person who was supposed to be caring for them.

And you'd be surprised at the number of mothers who don't give a rat's ass about their kids. I personally have known crank addicts who were 7 or 8 months pregnant and had never been to the doctor their entire pregnancy. They didn't quit smoking crank or drinking booze. They were negligent and could care less about that child they made before it was even born. So don't talk about some mystical mother instinct.


Bear witness to the full fury of the Fris Shocked

*edit

I went to school with a kid that was born a meth baby to parents who were fairly big time drug dealers and I can say he is one of the worst human beings I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. Through his petty crimes and because of his addictions he's ruined many peoples lives. I only know of his post high school exploits from mutual aquaintences.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 7562

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Major Tom wrote:
you can't claim that the familial relationship creates an opportunity to get away with murder.

would it be right not to send her to jail because she killed her only child, whether or not she is sorry? she sure can't do that again.

just spay her and send on her merry way?


A defense lawyer could argue that sending her to prison after such trauma could constitute a cruel punishment. I personally don't think prison would be cruel but I dunno...I gues I'm feeling sorry for fjan.


first the psych exam would need to prove trauma and she would also need to be declared fit to stand trial.

it would also probably be necessary to proven that just punishment for her criminal negligence would most likely cause her undue psychological harm.

it's not enough merely to mention it in court.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think there are a lot of assumptions being made without much data.

let me point out a few things. first, this is an 18 year old mother living in a homeless shelter with her 4 month old child. now, i'm making an assumption here, but i'm guessing she's an unwed mother.

she was out all night drinking. now, maybe this was the very first time in her life she did that....but one does wonder the circumstances under which she got pregnant....and, again, making an assumption here - i would not be wildly surprised to find out that there was some alcohol involved in that.

so i can think of a couple of prior life experiences that might have made her feel she should stop drinking - when she discovered she was pregnant, and when she became homeless. and yet, she still went out drinking.

i'm sure she's sincerely sorry. that doesn't mean she will be able to just stop drinking. for one thing, now she will have guilt over the child as a reason to drink, or do drugs, or whatever.

now, the article said she _could_ be sentenced to 5 years - not that she had been. it also doesn't say what sort of an institution she might be sentenced to - but i would guess it's not likely to be a maximum security place.

it doesn't say anything about her being deprived of all treatment during her incarceration. i believe a lot of prisons have drug and alcohol programs. a lot of them also have programs that help the prisoners get jobs and make something of their lives after they get out - they don't _all_ end up recruited into gangs.

fjafjan is suggesting that she can be treated as an outpatient. but she's homeless. what's she going to live on, where is she going to live, who is going to keep track of her?

prison does seem harsh, especially for someone who has just lost a child. but i suspect losing that child was the culmination of a whole series of stupid decisions this young woman has made. maybe when it happened, she was trying like crazy to get her life together, and this was just one really unfortunate event. maybe not. those are the sorts of things that will come out in the trial, and which will influence sentencing.

no, prison won't bring the child back. it probably won't disuade other young women from doing exactly what this one did. but it does say that we care about the lives of children, we expect parents to show some sense of responsibility, and there are consequences when they fail to do so.

and i really, really find myself compelled to say, given the original subject of this thread, that i find it quite ironic that he name is dejesus. one might aske where, indeed, jesus was in all of this.
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