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My very eager mother just served us nine.....
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rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 4073

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I... I don't understand.
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Agamemnon



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Studying somewhere. Or at least that's where I should be.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My post that you replied to was actually a relpy to MT. I was arguing the same perspective as you.
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-Agamemnon.....but you can call me Jake.

P: They don't know we know they know we know. And Joey, you can't say anything!

J: Couldn't if I wanted to.
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rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I... I don't understand.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

instinct already has the answers, it doesn't need questions.

doesn't that imply understanding?
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Agamemnon



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Studying somewhere. Or at least that's where I should be.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
instinct?

above and before the need for a voice, there is the known.

understanding may net be necessary for the known.


Agamemnon wrote:
But, even having that knowledge is something, whether that name has a word or just a feeling.

I think the difference is the why vs. the what. As long as there is an answer to "what," it will have a name of some sort.



We have a name for everything, even if we cannot articulate it in a language. We may not know why we must hump everything with breasts but we know that we are compelled to do so. (Instinct.) Having the knowledge is having a name for it; however that name is represented within us.
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-Agamemnon.....but you can call me Jake.

P: They don't know we know they know we know. And Joey, you can't say anything!

J: Couldn't if I wanted to.
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Agamemnon



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 907
Location: Studying somewhere. Or at least that's where I should be.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
instinct already has the answers, it doesn't need questions.

doesn't that imply understanding?



So it cannot have a name?
_________________
-Agamemnon.....but you can call me Jake.

P: They don't know we know they know we know. And Joey, you can't say anything!

J: Couldn't if I wanted to.
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rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it implies... instinct. it doesn't even know it has the answers. it just does what it does. maybe you can call that understanding, but it's not really conscious of itself as understanding anything. it has knowledge, but no way to apply that knowledge to "figuring things out", like why and what.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
Major Tom wrote:
instinct?

above and before the need for a voice, there is the known.

understanding may net be necessary for the known.


Agamemnon wrote:
But, even having that knowledge is something, whether that name has a word or just a feeling.

I think the difference is the why vs. the what. As long as there is an answer to "what," it will have a name of some sort.



We have a name for everything, even if we cannot articulate it in a language. We may not know why we must hump everything with breasts but we know that we are compelled to do so. (Instinct.) Having the knowledge is having a name for it; however that name is represented within us.

no, with that i disagree.

language is about (at least) internal dialogue and consideration.

instinct is about action -- there is no need to name, just do.
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Agamemnon



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Studying somewhere. Or at least that's where I should be.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, but is there an awareness of "doing"? Would that not have a name?


Is the motivation that wouldn't have a name, therefore the "why" I mentioned.


I'm losing myself here, so maybe I'll just let you two work it out and try to follow you. Very Happy
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-Agamemnon.....but you can call me Jake.

P: They don't know we know they know we know. And Joey, you can't say anything!

J: Couldn't if I wanted to.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rm wrote:
it implies... instinct. it doesn't even know it has the answers. it just does what it does. maybe you can call that understanding, but it's not really conscious of itself as understanding anything. it has knowledge, but no way to apply that knowledge to "figuring things out", like why and what.


ok, yes to some of that.

but needing to apply one answer to another problem doesn't seem to me to be a requisite for "understanding" -- it seems to be an additional requirement...imposed maybe.

you don't always need another question in order to continue to understand something you understand, do you?
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rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no of course not, but you have to start with a question, and the ability to ask them. and then you add this additional knowledge or understanding to instinct, and you develop the ways and means to make your life easier (or more complicated).

things tend to snowball, once you start applying knowledge, or once you start the process of self-inquiry.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm, roadblock.

you believe that, by definition, one can possess understanding only as the outcome of a logical process (or a process, in any case).

and, if understanding is not achieved, it is not "understanding".

i think i disagree.
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rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, I think that is what I am saying. understanding has to be achieved.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you could explain exactly what it is that is acheived, i might be able to cite the 'free lunch' opportunities we have.

that is, if there is a thing that is achieved, that is separate from the pursuit itself. the goal, the prize...y'know.
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rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you want me to define understanding in concrete terms and in a way that explains how it is different from instinctual knowledge and how it is achieved and what benefit its achievement gives us?

give me some time.
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