Sinfest Forum Index Sinfest
welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

My very eager mother just served us nine.....
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 7562

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fair enough - time that is.

but it seems to be the division i'm wrestling with, if not 'we'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 4073

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the division? 'we'? you lost me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 7562

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the division between understanding, the thing, and the pursuit of understanding.


i am, if not "we are", wrestling with that division.

sorry.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 4073

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

got it. I'm going to drink a gallon of coffee and think about it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10877
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: I think I'll just get high. That way I can at least pretend. Reply with quote

Y'all are going way over my head guys. This is some serious shit.

I didn't understand any of the last 3 pages..
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Agamemnon



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 907
Location: Studying somewhere. Or at least that's where I should be.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if C-A-T really spelled "dog"?
_________________
-Agamemnon.....but you can call me Jake.

P: They don't know we know they know we know. And Joey, you can't say anything!

J: Couldn't if I wanted to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10636

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused

Oh thank you rm, _now_ you start thinking.
Thanks man, I love and respect you too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3448
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't the core of knowledge the ability to understand something without using words or names? Surreal art and the abstract come to mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 7562

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think abstraction and surrealism are concepts like any other...like numbers or deception, or music.

they might be concepts that are less often understood than others and, in that they might be rarely, are considered 'higher' concepts, but they don't seem to correspond directly to "knowledge".

i think knowledge is essentially stored understanding, with or without language.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 4073

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Confused

Oh thank you rm, _now_ you start thinking.
Thanks man, I love and respect you too.


I wasn't thinking before because you didn't agree with my statements?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 4073

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, tom.

I realized yesterday that in order to discuss the difference between instinctive knowledge and higher understanding I would have to bring up the concept of consciousness. here I do not mean consciousness as being awake. I define it this way:

consciousness: the awareness of the self as "I" and the ability to conceptualize a mental map of the world in the mind and metaphorically project that "I" through it... to be aware of a seperation between the world and the self, and self and others, and thus to develop introspection and willfull expression.

you may agree or disagree with that definition, but it's the one I use and it's important to my argument.

now, a few more definitions.

instinctive knowledge: a construct of self-evident facts that exist inherently in the being, or which will be quickly learned with the aid of inherent tools. inherent is the key word here. the transfer and assimilation of this knowledge does not require the use of language, no more than we must be told to keep our hearts beating or that when we are hungry we need to find something to eat.

understanding: trickier. the difference is in grasping how and why the knowledge constructs work. it is completely derivative of instinct, but understanding goes further and contains the not-so-obvious facts, the whys and wherefores that can only be known through observation, deliberate experimentation and intentional application.

a scenerio: a dog is hungry. the dog sniffs around and finds a rock. the dog knows that the rock isn't food, or that the rock smells of his scent. there are rudimentary elements of understanding here - perhaps he knows why it smells of himself, he sprayed it yesterday. he also knows why he sprays and what it means to control territory and why he must do so. he knows these things because he is programmed to know them. they are not learned traits. they are grounded in the deep dark recesses of nature's "brain" which is aware of itself only in the context of survival. a dog won't ask why the sun rises, not even if the sun failed to do so. it would just feel the effects.

understanding is knowledge that is either accidentally or deliberately gathered. it doesn't matter if you learn something by accident, as long as you are capable of catagorizing that knowledge in your mind and using it later. it is the application of learned data. consciousness plays its role, for I am suggesting that only a mind that is able to think abstractly, metaphorically, a mind that can plan and think ahead and foresee outcomes based on various actions before actually doing them, only this kind of mind is capable of understanding the world in this way... a way that enabled us to figure out the basic concepts of botany and the seasons and sow and harvest our own crops and store them for a rainy day... a way that allows us to see beyond immediate needs and deny ourselves certain comforts now because we imagine a greater benefit in doing so. basic instinctive knowledge doesn't allow this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 7562

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there's a lot of good stuff there. i'll have to work on it, in turn.

just to say -- if at any point my response seems to be quibbling or parsing too closely, put me in check. i won't be looking to exploit any loose definitions or promote bad interpretations or spring any 'traps', merely looking for clarification and/or exploring the potential of fuzzy connections, unintended or otherwise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 4073

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's all about the fuzzy connections.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 16644
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
What if C-A-T really spelled "dog"?


"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

and a dog by any spelling will still hump your leg.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3448
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
i think abstraction and surrealism are concepts like any other...like numbers or deception, or music.

they might be concepts that are less often understood than others and, in that they might be rarely, are considered 'higher' concepts, but they don't seem to correspond directly to "knowledge".

i think knowledge is essentially stored understanding, with or without language.


I've always considered mathematics and music to be abstract concepts myself, but what do you mean by deception?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 5 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group