Sinfest

[Major Tom]

fair enough - time that is.

but it seems to be the division i'm wrestling with, if not 'we'.

[rm]

the division? 'we'? you lost me.

[Major Tom]

the division between understanding, the thing, and the pursuit of understanding.


i am, if not "we are", wrestling with that division.

sorry.

[rm]

got it. I'm going to drink a gallon of coffee and think about it.

[Snorri]

Y'all are going way over my head guys. This is some serious shit.

I didn't understand any of the last 3 pages..
_________________

[Agamemnon]

What if C-A-T really spelled "dog"?
_________________
-Agamemnon.....but you can call me Jake.

P: They don't know we know they know we know. And Joey, you can't say anything!

J: Couldn't if I wanted to.

[Michael]

Oh thank you rm, _now_ you start thinking.
Thanks man, I love and respect you too.

[Thy Brilliance]

Isn't the core of knowledge the ability to understand something without using words or names? Surreal art and the abstract come to mind.

[Major Tom]

i think abstraction and surrealism are concepts like any other...like numbers or deception, or music.

they might be concepts that are less often understood than others and, in that they might be rarely, are considered 'higher' concepts, but they don't seem to correspond directly to "knowledge".

i think knowledge is essentially stored understanding, with or without language.

[rm]

[rm]

ok, tom.

I realized yesterday that in order to discuss the difference between instinctive knowledge and higher understanding I would have to bring up the concept of consciousness. here I do not mean consciousness as being awake. I define it this way:

consciousness: the awareness of the self as "I" and the ability to conceptualize a mental map of the world in the mind and metaphorically project that "I" through it... to be aware of a seperation between the world and the self, and self and others, and thus to develop introspection and willfull expression.

you may agree or disagree with that definition, but it's the one I use and it's important to my argument.

now, a few more definitions.

instinctive knowledge: a construct of self-evident facts that exist inherently in the being, or which will be quickly learned with the aid of inherent tools. inherent is the key word here. the transfer and assimilation of this knowledge does not require the use of language, no more than we must be told to keep our hearts beating or that when we are hungry we need to find something to eat.

understanding: trickier. the difference is in grasping how and why the knowledge constructs work. it is completely derivative of instinct, but understanding goes further and contains the not-so-obvious facts, the whys and wherefores that can only be known through observation, deliberate experimentation and intentional application.

a scenerio: a dog is hungry. the dog sniffs around and finds a rock. the dog knows that the rock isn't food, or that the rock smells of his scent. there are rudimentary elements of understanding here - perhaps he knows why it smells of himself, he sprayed it yesterday. he also knows why he sprays and what it means to control territory and why he must do so. he knows these things because he is programmed to know them. they are not learned traits. they are grounded in the deep dark recesses of nature's "brain" which is aware of itself only in the context of survival. a dog won't ask why the sun rises, not even if the sun failed to do so. it would just feel the effects.

understanding is knowledge that is either accidentally or deliberately gathered. it doesn't matter if you learn something by accident, as long as you are capable of catagorizing that knowledge in your mind and using it later. it is the application of learned data. consciousness plays its role, for I am suggesting that only a mind that is able to think abstractly, metaphorically, a mind that can plan and think ahead and foresee outcomes based on various actions before actually doing them, only this kind of mind is capable of understanding the world in this way... a way that enabled us to figure out the basic concepts of botany and the seasons and sow and harvest our own crops and store them for a rainy day... a way that allows us to see beyond immediate needs and deny ourselves certain comforts now because we imagine a greater benefit in doing so. basic instinctive knowledge doesn't allow this.

[Major Tom]

there's a lot of good stuff there. i'll have to work on it, in turn.

just to say -- if at any point my response seems to be quibbling or parsing too closely, put me in check. i won't be looking to exploit any loose definitions or promote bad interpretations or spring any 'traps', merely looking for clarification and/or exploring the potential of fuzzy connections, unintended or otherwise.

[rm]

it's all about the fuzzy connections.

[mouse]

[Thy Brilliance]