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Sen. Dimint (R-SC) supports the coup in Honduras
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

11bulletstop wrote:
It's true that right now it's more of a waiting game. In the future we'll know if the coup is actually better for the country, but from the perspective of what we know right now I think the coup was the better choice and hopefully hindsight won't prove us(the supporters) wrong.

Well, they have already kidnapped people and fired into demonstrations.
What could possibly be better about the coup? I mean except from a geopolitical point of view for the US given that Honduras prior to the coup had joined ALBA, so to take care of their energy crisis and not be dependent on the US.
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
My real question on this is, are conditions after things calmed down likely to be better with the new government than they were before the coup? If so, the new gov. (still democratic, and more so than the old pres. was trying to make it) deserves at least some support, in my opinion.

What's democratic about the new government?
Well, what the latest poll's show is that what is most likely to happen is that both the main parties, who both have beacked the coup, will lose out. Cesar Ham, leader of the Democratic Unification Party (a socialist far-left party and the main third party)whom the current regime have previosuly tried to murder, is the most likely winner.

However it is doubtfull if the military regime will respect any such result.
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CTrees



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How great were the conditions in the US a couple months after independence from Britain was (illegally) declared? How about France when they overthrew their government? Sweden may have had a more peaceful internal history, but the world has a long, long history of violent uprisings leading to positive outcomes in the long run. Zelaya was acting unconstitutionally, with the apparent goal of gaining long term, dictatorial power, and their Supreme Court ruled he should be out. Seems to me there's an argument to be made for Honduras moving to become less democratic, and the coup being carried out with the goal of keeping the country democratic.

Again, I don't know enough about the situation to have an informed opinion, and that's exactly why I think it isn't cut and dry, and is a waiting game to see how it turns out.
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
How great were the conditions in the US a couple months after independence from Britain was (illegally) declared? How about France when they overthrew their government? Sweden may have had a more peaceful internal history, but the world has a long, long history of violent uprisings leading to positive outcomes in the long run. Zelaya was acting unconstitutionally, with the apparent goal of gaining long term, dictatorial power, and their Supreme Court ruled he should be out. Seems to me there's an argument to be made for Honduras moving to become less democratic, and the coup being carried out with the goal of keeping the country democratic.

Again, I don't know enough about the situation to have an informed opinion, and that's exactly why I think it isn't cut and dry, and is a waiting game to see how it turns out.

Oh but this is a military coup orchestertrated and backed up by the political and economic establishment, how could you possibly compare it to the american or french revolution? If want something to compare with look to Chile in 1973.
And what apparent goal of gaining long-term dictatorial power? What he was calling for was a non-deiciding poll among the general population whetever they were for the creation of a group, with representatives from diffrent groups ins ociety, to come up with a reform of the constitution, yes among other things making candidates re-electable. Calling this "dictatorial" is ludcrious, especially in contrast with the de facto military coup carried out by those opposed to this poll.
In fact the real motives behind the coup have less to do with the proposed changes in the constituion and more to do with the fact that Zelaya has carried out some small reforms like rasing the minimum wage and affiliating to ALBA, things which have had popular support, but less so with the political and economic establishment. And, I must stress, Zelayas is no socialist, he is a liberal.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Both sides? You do know that the new elections are universally seen as illegtimate, given the current military coup? And condemning Zelayas, the democratically elected president, while claiming the coup makers to be an "democratic ally", well, how much more explicit does he have to get?


You remember that Zelayas was ousted because he was doing something patently undemocratic in the first place do you?.

The point wasn't about the way he was elected into power, but the way he tried to cling to power while ignoring the country's highest court ruling. Very democratic that one, yes siree.
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:

You remember that Zelayas was ousted because he was doing something patently undemocratic in the first place do you?.

The point wasn't about the way he was elected into power, but the way he tried to cling to power while ignoring the country's highest court ruling. Very democratic that one, yes siree.

I suppose you can back that up, because, as far as I am aware this view has only been presented by the coup makers themself.

Or rather by the way he strengthened the union's and social movements powers and dissafiliated from the shrinking pro-US bloc in latin america.

And if this really is the motivation by, say, Sen. Dimentis, why isn't he calling for a military coup against the Colombian governemnt, who happen to be far more undemocratic and militarized but also happen to be pro-US and opening up their country for the establishment of 7 new american military bases.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I can, I even started a thread on this forum on this specific topic with all relevant links. Do a bit of search-fu.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Of course I can, I even started a thread on this forum on this specific topic with all relevant links. Do a bit of search-fu.

I think I remember that thread. Something I don't remember however is how holding a public non-binding poll about creating a new consistuent assembly is undemocratic and carrying out a military coup is not.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you looked it up, you'd remember we had this little argument back then, and your interpretation of events was as colourful as ever.

Asking armed forces to remove highest judicial body has been not a coup since when?. I'd kindly suggest you go back and read the sources, etc.

As there are no new pieces of news since, some current developments are underway, aside politicking/finger pointing I see no reason to resurrect it.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would like to go on record as stating that i think sen. demint should absolutely, positively, be allowed to go to honduras.

allowing him to come back is a whole other issue.
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
If you looked it up, you'd remember we had this little argument back then, and your interpretation of events was as colourful as ever.

Asking armed forces to remove highest judicial body has been not a coup since when?. I'd kindly suggest you go back and read the sources, etc.

As there are no new pieces of news since, some current developments are underway, aside politicking/finger pointing I see no reason to resurrect it.

Well then please look at the following Who carried through the coup, who appointed the supreme court and who were deathly afraid of cutting ties with the US ( with Honduras being the original "banana republic", as in "banana republic" was an actual reference to honduras being controlled by United Fruit). Are these the same people? What a strange, strange coincidence. The word "corruption" springs to mind.
Now Zelaya refused to be "funded" by the banana companies and classical economic establishment in Honduras. He just sold nine of his companies being the rich guy he is. He also based himself on support from the Unions, the indigenous peoples movements and the social movements in general. I am not saying he is super-awesome or anything, but you have to put this current situation into context. Clearly democracy has not been the forte of Honduran politics previously.
So when they say the coup was in defence of "democracy" I think this can and should be questioned. Particularly seeing what actions the military, economic and political establishment has taken since then declaring martial law and withholding amny of the basic democratics rights, such as the right to assembly. It has been verified that the army has fired upon unarmed protesters killing several, there have been several reports of random kidnappings, torture and sexual assualt by the military.
It is being proposed that the current coup-president Michellitti should become a "permanent member of congress", as a deal proposal to let Zelayas back to serve the remainder of his term. Again coups like this are nothing new in latin american history.

However during the could war it was easier to call anyone even remotly progressive a soviet agent and have him removed (see operation CONDOR), this is not possible now.
It is clear that the US has been involved and supporting the establishment in Honduras for decades, among other things the paramilitary murdersquad Contras were trained in Honduras. Also, another thing leading up to the current crisis, the US has a military base in Honduras. Something which the US has through a deal, not with the government, but with the Honduran military leadership. It was this base Zelayas wanted to make into a civilian airport, for among other reasons, the fact that Tegucigalpa has one of the most deadly airports in all of the world. Planes regularly crash because the landingstrip is too short.
The fact that the US military has deal direclty with the Honduran military, not going through Honduran congress or governemnt, should ring a couple of warning bells.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am not saying he is super-awesome or anything, but you have to put this current situation into context. Clearly democracy has not been the forte of Honduran politics previously


Yup, on that we agree. The main difference of opinion comes mainly as to when we start counting points.

By your own account, the same Velaya who is now fighting corruption, was democratically elected by the same corrupt system and is therefore as corrupt as the rest of them. Unless you believe in born again honest, I wouldn't get that past you, you should think about what you're writing.


Quote:
So when they say the coup was in defence of "democracy" I think this can and should be questioned.


In other words, it's ok to disrespect one's country rule of law to cling to power whenever my backers are of this side (Chavez), rather than that side (Ebil US, whatever)?

That line of argument has been used over and over by any dictator in the world, Me vs Them. Go a bit further in this line of though, and you'll pile Godwin points like crazy.


You cannot escape the fact that Velaya started it all, that it this wouldn't have been an issue at all should the vote be postponed after the elections. Paint it all the way you want. Neither party in this spat are above one another, like it or not.
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:

By your own account, the same Velaya who is now fighting corruption, was democratically elected by the same corrupt system and is therefore as corrupt as the rest of them. Unless you believe in born again honest, I wouldn't get that past you, you should think about what you're writing.


Quite the opposite, what I said was that he refused to be funded, in his election campaign and after, by the old elite. Instead he depended on his own money and support from the social movements. Again, not all that radical to begin with, being one of one of the two parties that has ruled Honduras since the end of the dictatorship and being a rich landowner, but still diffrent enough to be a nuisance as in he had to actually care what ordinary people think to some extent. This in turn pushed him quite a bit further to the left than he had initially been, and the recent developments have undoubtly even more so with Zelayas backing the Party of Democratic Unifications president candidate, as opposed to his old party, the Liberal party, who's leadership also backed the coup (whereas it is said that 60-70% of the rank-file members has just upped and left the party in favour of the Front against the military coup). People do not play their role in history because they choose to, history chooses for them.

Quote:

In other words, it's ok to disrespect one's country rule of law to cling to power whenever my backers are of this side (Chavez), rather than that side (Ebil US, whatever)?

It's funny you should mention Chavez, given the US-backed coup attempt against him in 2002. Rule of law is not definite or unchangeable. I am hardly uncritical of Chavez, but he has been demonized far more than say Alvaro Uribe, president of Colombia, who has a much worse track record yet is considered to be one of the defenders of democracy in latin america by the anti-chavez crowd. The bolivarian revolution in Bolivia, Venezuela and Ecuador etc is very progressive, especially compared to what has gone before. I think it's patently true that venezuela was less democratic prior to the popular movement that propelled Chavez to power. If you look at the democratic structures he is using for his party, the PSUV, where every body is directly accountable to the body under it, going all the way up to the party top and all the way down to the local groups in the barrios.


Quote:
That line of argument has been used over and over by any dictator in the world, Me vs Them. Go a bit further in this line of though, and you'll pile Godwin points like crazy.

Which is exactly the line used by Micheletti and the coup makers in their supposed defense of "democracy" and their amusing claims of the popular opposition to the coup in honduras really all being Chavez controlled spies or whatever. The My enemies enemy is my friend is exactly the argument used by those proposing to defend the coup.


Quote:
You cannot escape the fact that Velaya started it all, that it this wouldn't have been an issue at all should the vote be postponed after the elections. Paint it all the way you want. Neither party in this spat are above one another, like it or not.

Uh yes, looking at the facts it is clear that this non-binding poll he wanted to hold during the elections was just a convenient excuse for the military and the political and economic establishment. And, unless you knew, there were more proposed changes in constitution, which comes from some time just after the end of the military dictatorship and does contain several flaws. Wanting to rewrite the constitution, to then be bale to do political reform, is probably one the least radical ways to push for reform.
This wouldn't have been an issue if the Chief of command had not ordered the legally elected president to be arrested and extradited, and also arrested and assualted several members of government and then went on to declare martial law, witholding among other things the right to assembly. Think what you will of Zelaya, again I am not saying he is super or anything, maybe in a very relative sense of the word in relation to the coup makers but that's about it. What is patently obvious however is that the coupmakers are not in any way, shape or form out to defend democracy. Indeed it's not unlikely they themself would have proposed the right to re-elect candidates (not that they'd need to since overall the two main parties have had very similar politics). After all they want Micheletti to become a "permanent member of congress". That is he won't be able to be removed by election. very democratic indeed.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking out of your ass and sidestepping issues aside which is your usual spiel, let's consider events as they happened :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8120161.stm


article dated 26th of June.

Quote:
He wants to hold a referendum on Sunday to ask Hondurans if they approve of holding a vote on unspecified constitutional change at the same time as the presidential election in November.


Bolding mine. Once more try to explain, without relying on any propaganda (which eliminates both Zelaya and Micheletti as sources), how this is democratic.

Better yet, try to portray this happening in your country.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Speaking out of your ass and sidestepping issues aside which is your usual spiel, let's consider events as they happened :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8120161.stm


article dated 26th of June.

Quote:
He wants to hold a referendum on Sunday to ask Hondurans if they approve of holding a vote on unspecified constitutional change at the same time as the presidential election in November.


Bolding mine. Once more try to explain, without relying on any propaganda (which eliminates both Zelaya and Micheletti as sources), how this is democratic.

Better yet, try to portray this happening in your country.

It was unspecified because it would have to have been deicided by a Consistuent Assembly? You know how Constitutions are usually changed?
If anything this just proves further that the coup had very little to do with the proposed changes in the constitution, because had they wanted to block them they could have easily done so legally, or at least without resorting to a military coup, through sabotaging the assemblies work.
Maybe you should ask yourself why the establishment is so afraid of a non-deiciding poll asking the general public whetever they think the constitution should be changed.
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