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Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gally912 wrote:
Him wrote:

Wait, since when is "you don't know what you are talking about" an effective burn?


When it's true.
Exactly.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
gally912 wrote:
Him wrote:

Wait, since when is "you don't know what you are talking about" an effective burn?


When it's true.
Exactly.


God you're fucking stupid.
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Him wrote:
Michael wrote:
so you do or you don't think they'd be better off alone?
Who are "they"? The Warlords? If they would ever defeat the Taliban, with US help as it seems now, they will start tearing at each other the moment that threat is eliminated. So yes I think if you by they mean the afghan people would be better off without US backing of the warlords in the area. The "you broke it, you bought it" policy does not apply to countries. Of course there is a way out, but it has nothing to do with neither the warlords nor the US. One of the most fundamental problems in Afghanistan, seeing as they produce up around 80-90% of the worlds heroin is that the farmlands are under control by warlords. The very same warlords that now receive US support to create "stability". The warlords power can be broken when peasants can afford to not grow opium, and to do this they will, without a doubt, organize themselves and be able to defend themselves. The US, NATO, is not going to do this. They must do it themselves, because in the warlords power, the farmers and the opium fields, lay also the force strong enough and able to defeat them, and the taliban, and create a democratic and free Afghanistan. This might seem like a tough call, but the fact of the matter is that a) the US presence is generally opposed, primarily because b) they support the corrupt government made up of warlords which leads to c) the taliban suddenly get more support. An alternative must be created.


The afghanistan situation is a very complex and convoluted mess and the most common erroneous interpretations I see of that mess are erroneous because they engage in gross oversimplification of many of the complex cultural, sociopolitical, and military facets and concerns currently facing that region.

You have provided a fresh new angle to interpreting Afghanistan erroneously, as far as I can see, because instead of simplifying anything, you have simply replaced the real complex and convoluted mess with another complex and convoluted mess anticipating a 'clear solution' which is neither clear nor appears to be a workable solution at all.

I mean, exactly what are you working with here? A pastiche of paint-by-numbers projectable marxist resolutions veneered over the afghan social climate? The peasant proletariat rising up against the poppy-producing bourgeoisie? I don't think your appraisal of the situation is very clear at all.
Well, for one thing, farming is a cross-community thing, so addressing those issues would also be a way addressing conflict or segregation between the different ethnic and religious communities in Afghanistan. Also worth remembering is that the talibans never had widespread popular support they basically just won out in the civil war, being a religious sect mostly consisted of pakistanis. Just like the mujaheedin they largely came from and were largely supported from abroad, in the mujaheedins case, from the US, in the talibans case mostly pakistan and saudi arabia. True the warlords sometimes have a bit of popularity, but that is in their own communities. If it hadn't been for the common taliban enemy and the allure of US support they would have probably started fighting each other already. It's clear they can't provide a stable future for afghanistan and are also generally mistrusted by the general population. I saw a bit on the UN report of the Afghani election. It didn't look good for Karzai's election "win". One of the reasons was that he had basically bought votes from specific communities, i e the warlords backing Karzai "encouraged" their people to vote for him. They also sat up fake voting boots and other similar stuff.

The US strategy in Afghanistan clearly is failing, from a democratic point of view at least. I'm sorry it's almost 5 in the morning and I have got stuff to do. I'll continue tomorrow.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Okay to out this in as plain terms as possible, maybe so the point won't even escape Monkey here (although I admit it is unlikely he'd ever get it). The us army are supporting the Afghani government, th afghani government is effectively the warlords. Warlords =/= afghani people.
Well, clearly you've answered my question. You are, in fact, not capable of answering a question honestly without being disingenous. Because your response there, while in "plain terms", wasn't actually an answer to Michael's question. Did you try to answer and fail? Or did you not even try?
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Sam



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, for one thing, farming is a cross-community thing, so addressing those issues would also be a way addressing conflict or segregation between the different ethnic and religious communities in Afghanistan.


Okay. Address them. Make this statement contextually meaningful in regards to an actual proposed solution. Many things are cross-community things; it doesn't change the fundamental conceits of brokered power structure and feudal warlordism in an impoverished region filled with fundamentalist muslim extremism and a terrifyingly spartan climate that is poorly suited to planting just about anything but poppies.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Communism isnt about solutions, its about ideals.
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Well, for one thing, farming is a cross-community thing, so addressing those issues would also be a way addressing conflict or segregation between the different ethnic and religious communities in Afghanistan.


BWAHAHAHAHAHA
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gally912



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Location: Afghandi-land. Like candy-land, only not as nice.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Him wrote:
Well, for one thing, farming is a cross-community thing, so addressing those issues would also be a way addressing conflict or segregation between the different ethnic and religious communities in Afghanistan.


BWAHAHAHAHAHA

Quoting StE for Truth
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Communism isnt about solutions, its about ideals.


Well it's also about taking a big ol' pile of facts and SMASHING THEM WITH YOUR HAMMER AND SICKLE until, warped and twisted by the might of your worker's arm, they fit into your wacky Marxist dogma.

Didn't they say no to the whole Communism thing anyways when Russia came calling? Or is this time gonna be different or something? Or, is that all the Americans' fault because our Stinger missiles contained secret pro-capitalism radiation that warped their poor little Afghan minds?
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Communism isnt about solutions, its about ideals.


Well it's also about taking a big ol' pile of facts and SMASHING THEM WITH YOUR HAMMER AND SICKLE until, warped and twisted by the might of your worker's arm, they fit into your wacky Marxist dogma.

Didn't they say no to the whole Communism thing anyways when Russia came calling? Or is this time gonna be different or something? Or, is that all the Americans' fault because our Stinger missiles contained secret pro-capitalism radiation that warped their poor little Afghan minds?

Well, the Sauer Revolution and the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan(1978-1992) did have public support. Well not from the local islamists of course, so the us funded these terrorists and even helped some get into the country for this Jihad. The funding started 6 months before the Soviets appeared in the country to "stabilize" things. And even the soviet invasion wasn't at all met with the same resistance as teh US one, having support in urban areas particulary Red Kabul.
Not that the pro-moscow regime was superb either, but it certainly was far better than what was about to come. And even the Taliban regime was better than this state of civil war and occupation.
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And of course it is going to be different. For one thing the Soviet is no more. I happen to believe in democratic socialism, not sovietstyle top-down one party state. And it's not just what I believe either, it's certainly more effective.
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gally912



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
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Location: Afghandi-land. Like candy-land, only not as nice.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:

Well, the Sauer Revolution and the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan(1978-1992) did have public support. Well not from the local islamists of course, so the us funded these terrorists and even helped some get into the country for this Jihad. The funding started 6 months before the Soviets appeared in the country to "stabilize" things. And even the soviet invasion wasn't at all met with the same resistance as teh US one, having support in urban areas particulary Red Kabul.
Apparently you need to read up on the Soviet war in Afghanistan, cause... yeah.
Quote:

Not that the pro-moscow regime was superb either, but it certainly was far better than what was about to come. And even the Taliban regime was better than this state of civil war and occupation.

You see what you wrote right there? Normally I'd pass it off with "oh, just another idiot who doesnt have a clue- but no. This has me kind of frightened that there might be more people who share this.... misconception?
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gally912 wrote:
Him wrote:

Well, the Sauer Revolution and the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan(1978-1992) did have public support. Well not from the local islamists of course, so the us funded these terrorists and even helped some get into the country for this Jihad. The funding started 6 months before the Soviets appeared in the country to "stabilize" things. And even the soviet invasion wasn't at all met with the same resistance as teh US one, having support in urban areas particulary Red Kabul.
Apparently you need to read up on the Soviet war in Afghanistan, cause... yeah.
Quote:

Not that the pro-moscow regime was superb either, but it certainly was far better than what was about to come. And even the Taliban regime was better than this state of civil war and occupation.

You see what you wrote right there? Normally I'd pass it off with "oh, just another idiot who doesnt have a clue- but no. This has me kind of frightened that there might be more people who share this.... misconception?

In afghanistan? Certainly. But I figure that ought to worry you.
Perhaps I should add that the pro-moscow regime in Afghanistan was not put in place by moscow, who if I remember correctly covered all their bases by giving support both the the military dictatorship and the People's Democratic Party. The PDP came to power through what has been described as both a coup and a popular uprising.What is certain however is that they had a strong support in the military, as well as in the urban areas. However given their strongly secular and progressive stance on such thing's as women's rights and religious freedom they were less popular in the countryside where traditionalist ideas still did hold pretty strong sway.

Normally, of course empty phrases like yours don't deserve a response, but I figured some clarification about the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan was needed.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Normally, of course empty phrases like yours don't deserve a response,
I know, right? Just like Michael's empty phrases asking your opinion. How can people be so rude when you're just trying to teach them the truth?
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Him



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are confused as to my answer to Michael's question, it is "Yes, they would be better off without US/NATO interference."
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