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Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Virginia (Much barfiness)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him, I admire your persistence. You certainly seem idealistic and you clearly mean well. Having said that, you remind me a bit of the neo-conservatives. If it doesn't fit your ideology you simply ignore it. The responses to your posts run the gamut from knee jerk opposition to extremely well defended arguments that just seem to go right by you (See above comparison to neo-conservatives).
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2437

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
If you are confused as to my answer to Michael's question, it is "Yes, they would be better off without US/NATO interference."
Excellent. Now would it really have been so hard to just say this instead of not really answering a couple of times first?
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4179
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Quote:
Well, for one thing, farming is a cross-community thing, so addressing those issues would also be a way addressing conflict or segregation between the different ethnic and religious communities in Afghanistan.


Okay. Address them. Make this statement contextually meaningful in regards to an actual proposed solution. Many things are cross-community things; it doesn't change the fundamental conceits of brokered power structure and feudal warlordism in an impoverished region filled with fundamentalist muslim extremism and a terrifyingly spartan climate that is poorly suited to planting just about anything but poppies.

Half of the farmland in Afghanistan is currently not used, and the reason for the poppy plantages have very little to do with how easy or hard it is to grow poppies, but that farmers simply cannot afford to grow other crops. Especially not with the local warlords being depended in the vast income form that crop, latest UN report I saw said that 92% of all heroin today originate from Afghanistan, now I don't know the exact number of income that gives to the warlords, but needless to say it is some serious money.
Now, this basic conflict I have already pretty much described.

But in addition to that Afghanistan is of course communally divided, in fact the warlords are based more or less on different ethnic groups. Building cross-communal farmers organizations would begin to address this issue , also putting a wedge between the warlords and their community. It would also, as farmers organizations have done elsewhere give the farmers not only a bargaining power and a self-confidence but also the ability to directly buyout or take over their own farmlands. Of course building such organizations isn't simple and would require help and support, but there already exist numerous similar organizations and campaigns all over the world, from latin america, to asia to africa. What is important is that it becomes a self-sustaining movement and this is why I would be a bit wary, if not directly opposed, to UN support, for example. But of course UN and other charity campaigns would be helpful as well.
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4179
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
Him, I admire your persistence. You certainly seem idealistic and you clearly mean well. Having said that, you remind me a bit of the neo-conservatives. If it doesn't fit your ideology you simply ignore it. The responses to your posts run the gamut from knee jerk opposition to extremely well defended arguments that just seem to go right by you (See above comparison to neo-conservatives).

Well, I am sorry if I didn't send an answer to Sam straight away, if that is what you are addressing.
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 2275
Location: 192.168.0.1

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:23 pm    Post subject: A Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Sam wrote:
Quote:
Well, for one thing, farming is a cross-community thing, so addressing those issues would also be a way addressing conflict or segregation between the different ethnic and religious communities in Afghanistan.


Okay. Address them. Make this statement contextually meaningful in regards to an actual proposed solution. Many things are cross-community things; it doesn't change the fundamental conceits of brokered power structure and feudal warlordism in an impoverished region filled with fundamentalist muslim extremism and a terrifyingly spartan climate that is poorly suited to planting just about anything but poppies.

Half of the farmland in Afghanistan is currently not used, and the reason for the poppy plantages have very little to do with how easy or hard it is to grow poppies, but that farmers simply cannot afford to grow other crops. Especially not with the local warlords being depended in the vast income form that crop, latest UN report I saw said that 92% of all heroin today originate from Afghanistan, now I don't know the exact number of income that gives to the warlords, but needless to say it is some serious money.
Now, this basic conflict I have already pretty much described.

But in addition to that Afghanistan is of course communally divided, in fact the warlords are based more or less on different ethnic groups. Building cross-communal farmers organizations would begin to address this issue , also putting a wedge between the warlords and their community. It would also, as farmers organizations have done elsewhere give the farmers not only a bargaining power and a self-confidence but also the ability to directly buyout or take over their own farmlands. Of course building such organizations isn't simple and would require help and support, but there already exist numerous similar organizations and campaigns all over the world, from latin america, to asia to africa. What is important is that it becomes a self-sustaining movement and this is why I would be a bit wary, if not directly opposed, to UN support, for example. But of course UN and other charity campaigns would be helpful as well.


A bit better.

You're forgetting the main issue of transporting crops. And another one which means selling stuff for a better amount than poppy does, there is little demand for foodstuff as few can afford it anyway locally. Which brings the side issue of security, and no one expect the ones who benefit from the opium trade to sit by idly, as you mentionned, so instead of terrorizing a village, it'd be a lot more convenient to blow up a produce lorry. Add said lorries are pretty penny there, last major road constructions were made during soviet occupation if memory serves.

Too you're, underestimating the tribal factor. Until you get villages past something like what is was in europe in the mid 19th you won't get two villages to cooperate with one another, even if they're of the same ethnic group. Here we're back at the road network issue.

Last but not least you're not taking into account the vendetta issue.

All this to mean that what may work in location #1 may not so in location #2.

The best, even if the least democratic way, would be to concentrate efforts in one area, in the hope it won't crumble under pressure right after you leave. That happened too, more than once. As for UN, methink they used all the respectability credit they had when they came by now.
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