welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Israeli youths reject army call-up
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2434

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
Okay there's a volunteer program, which lets Jews from around the world experience what it's like to be in the IDF without actually enlisting in the IDF, that spends part of its time in occupied areas. This is my fault, of course; I wasn't clear enough.
You were clear enough. Him doesn't care about the truth of the situation enough to read the sources he claims support him.

CTrees wrote:
do you have any sources which show that everyone enlisted in or commissioned by the IDF eventually ends up in occupied territories?
No, because it's not true. There are groups like Courage to Refuse which have built up enough momentum that the IDF simply shifts them to alternate duties when they refuse to serve in contested areas.

Vox Raucus wrote:
Way to backpedal, Him.
You'd think that if he was genuinely interested in honestly discussing the situation, there'd be at least a little "I may have overstated a bit" before he switches positions. It's almost as though his group's aim doesn't actually have anything to do with the students, but rather more to do with badmouthing the IDF.
_________________
"To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others."
- Anne-Sophie Swetchine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3714
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WHAT GROUP, IT'S JUST HIM

I know socialists, and if he had a posse, they would have invaded us worse than the panda biters did a few years ago.
_________________
"Eight hundred pounds of nitro, his boots are thunder as he plays."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4175
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
No, because it's not true. There are groups like Courage to Refuse which have built up enough momentum that the IDF simply shifts them to alternate duties when they refuse to serve in contested areas.

ironically, this proves, rather than disproves my original point. There4 are hundreds of shiministim that do not get arrested too. Why? Eventually the army tires. members of courage to resist regulary face prison time aswell, the reason some are taken away from occupied area is because they are seen as troublemakers, not because of charity, hence why Courage To Resist and otehr groups are campaigning for such an option to be available. Israel is in a state of perpetual war, and, let's not get too lost here, the original poinjt I was trying to make is rather simple, the shiministim choose not to serve in the IDF because they do not want to be a part of the occupation. I thinkt his quite clearly holds, and forgive me for not digging up more sources, but really I, or the shiministim for that matter, am not making any unreasonable claim at all.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4175
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
WHAT GROUP, IT'S JUST HIM

I know socialists, and if he had a posse, they would have invaded us worse than the panda biters did a few years ago.

Oh I do have a posse. But the claims that I am making posts on "command" are conspiracytheorynuttery laughable.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4175
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Its almost like he gets all his information from biased sources with an agenda. But that could never happen.
Google and wikipedia?
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3714
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You fucking dickbag.
_________________
"Eight hundred pounds of nitro, his boots are thunder as he plays."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2434

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
ironically, this proves, rather than disproves my original point
No. It definitely disproves your point. The specific point being contested is your frequent, frequent stating that being in the IDF absolutely means you will be stationed in disputed areas. Every argument and point you have made in this thread is solidly based on that claim.

That claim is false. The existence of Courage to Refuse absolutely clearly and undeniably proves you wrong.

Him wrote:
the original poinjt I was trying to make is rather simple, the shiministim choose not to serve in the IDF because they do not want to be a part of the occupation. I thinkt his quite clearly holds
It does not hold. There are options for serving in the IDF while not being part of the occupation. That has been what everyone has been saying all along, and that's what Courage to Refuse demonstrates. You are wrong.

If you were actually concerned about the situation, about spreading the truth about what has been going on, you would admit that you were wrong, and that your facts were incorrect.

That you imply you have numerous sources, but can't be arsed to provide them, or even describe what they are, or what they support, except for the one source you clearly haphazardly googled and didn't even check to see if it applied, shows how little you care about the truth. Your refusal to admit you are wrong is unmistakably an admission that you are dishonest.

Him wrote:
Oh I do have a posse. But the claims that I am making posts on "command" are conspiracytheorynuttery laughable.
They don't need to command it. They've drilled it deeply into you that a good little comrade will spread the articles and arguments they provide with alacrity, and without question.
_________________
"To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others."
- Anne-Sophie Swetchine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4175
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh for fucks sake, Sojobo. Learn to read. Of course the option to being a shiministim is being a refusenik while in the army. But again, and you must have somehow missed this, this is not an option the army willingly offers, i. e. no you can't choose not to serve in occupied territory, as far as they are concerned. It's pretty much a case of either they charge you or, if you are lucky, they don't. the shministim do not serve in the first place because they explicitly state they will not take part in any activity supporting the occupation. I admit, not all IDF are stationed on occupied territory, but you can't seriously say you don't think the IDF's main focus of activity are the occupied territories? And further more, that those serving in the army are very likely to be either stationed on occupied territory or involved in an activity directly related to the occupation, like working in the supply depot or armory.
And remember that half of jerusalem is occupied territory, where palestinian houses are being torn down and families evicted.
Anyhow, if you missed that too because that point was strangely absent even though you were insinuating that I don't "care" about the subject at hand, this is why the shiministim refuse. And sure you might not trust them as a source, but really, do I have any reason at all to believe you know better? right now you seem to pressing a detail, in absurdum, while doing your best to miss the big picture, what it is really about. I am not saying that you are right though, for aforementioned reasons.
The articles and arguments who provide? Maybe you shouldn't talk about being "drilled" when it is you clutching for conspiracy straws here.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2434

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Learn to read.
I have read and understood every post you've made. You've clearly not done me the same courtesy.

Him wrote:
Of course the option to being a shiministim is being a refusenik while in the army.
This was not your position earlier. You declared several times that service in the IDF would inevitably include serving in the occupied territory. Are you now claiming differently? Then simply admit you were wrong, and move on.

Him wrote:
I admit, not all IDF are stationed on occupied territory
This is almost there. Now add to it that earlier you WERE saying all of them did serve in occupied territory, and admit you were wrong.

Him wrote:
you were insinuating that I don't "care" about the subject at hand
I'm not insinuating it. I'm concluding it. Your carelessness about the truth is quite clear evidence of it.

Him wrote:
right now you seem to pressing a detail, in absurdum, while doing your best to miss the big picture
It is not a detail. It is the core fact upon which of all the arguments you've made in this thread are based.

Him wrote:
The articles and arguments who provide?
Your "posse." The writers of the newsletters and websites you get all of your stories and info and arguments from. Especially your source for the Nuremburg stuff - you're neither malicious nor subtle enough to come up with that slander on your own.
_________________
"To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others."
- Anne-Sophie Swetchine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4175
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I maintain, that the relevant majority of soldiers who serve in the IDF are extremely likely to, during their service, at some point be placed at the occupied territories. It is quite hard not to get the point from that, as you seem so intent on doing.

As for what my position was earlier, I suggest you go back and read and you will find I have mentioned soldiers in the IDF refusing stationing on occupied territory aswell, quite early on in fact. It has nothing to do with my "position", in fact I mentioned Courage To resist before you did, so to suggest I was unaware of them is preposterous.

May I remind you the "Nuremberg stuff" is international law on warfare, but I suppose wikipedia is biased and slandering against warcriminals for bringing it up in their section on laws regarding conscienetious objectors.

My "news letter" is major news media Al-Jazeera, the Washington Post among others. But nice try though.

edit: I am sorry but it seems you're little tactic of moving away the discussion from what is important and tryng to portray my arguments as other than what they are has partly dragged me with you. For this I apologise. So, again, lest you get too cought up in godwin-attacks or allusions about me taking "commands" from some kind of "group"., I guess I, again, have to point to what is actually relevant here. The shiministim refuse to serve because they believe this is the most effective way both not taking a part of the occupation and protesting the occupation. Soldiers already serving in the IDF do not necessarily go into service being opposed to the occupation, so it is not entirely the same matter, although I of course support both groups. Refusing service in the IDF is a powerfull and visible protest, as the original post shows and some of the reactions from the more rightwing sectors of the israeli media also shows. These young men and women are risking both prison and ostracizion, possibly being shut out by friends and family members, indeed most of israeli society in large, and doing so to defend the basic human rights of the palestinians supposedly endowed upon all through the UN declaration.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray


Last edited by Him on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 7562

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

refusenik?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4175
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
refusenik?

Self-chosen term of the protest movement. A term of historical relevance in Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusenik
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2434

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
As for what my position was earlier, I suggest you go back and read
Okay. How about I do that:

Him wrote:
because again they are not protestign conscription in general, but being forces to take part in an illegal occupation.
Him wrote:
Reality check here, being in the IDF means being deployed to the occupied territories.
Him wrote:
It's not just about the war, it is about being stationed on occupied territory
Him wrote:
Joining the army and being stationed on occupied territory is basically the same thing in Israel
Him wrote:
And again, I have to repeat, being in the IDF will mean that you will at some point, probably sooner than alter, at least be stationed in unlawfully occupied territory.
Him wrote:
they are refusing to join the army because they know they will be stationed in illegally occupied territory
Him wrote:
The IDF are perpetuing an illegal occupation and the likelyness of being stationed on illegally occupied territory while in service is almost 100%
Him, quoting himself, just so we know how completely behind this point he is, wrote:
And again, I have to repeat, being in the IDF will mean that you will at some point, probably sooner than alter, at least be stationed in unlawfully occupied territory.
Him wrote:
There is no "might" about it though, which has been mentioned a good three or four times already
Him wrote:
Being in the IDF means taking part in the occupation
Him wrote:
They are refusing to take part in an illegal occupation, enlisting means taking part in that
Him wrote:
Every IDF member is stationed in occupied territory, if not during all of their services.
Him wrote:
Being stationed on occupied territory is an inevitable part of signing up.
Him wrote:
And it also includes being stationed on occupied territory.
Him wrote:
As I said, all military personel in the IDF are stationed on occupied territory at one time or another


Are you really going to claim your position was that a "relevant majority" of soldiers were "likely" to be placed in occupied territories? As I said, I've read your posts. I'm reporting what you said accurately. You are not reporting what you said accurately.

Him wrote:
May I remind you the "Nuremberg stuff" is international law on warfare
Of course you may. And may I remind you that I've already addressed this several times? The "Nuremberg stuff" is very clearly pursuant to being given immoral orders. The students were not given immoral orders. Therefore, the "Nuremberg stuff" is not applicable. That's formal logic right there. That means it's accurate. You should look into using logic some time. Handy stuff.

Him wrote:
My "news letter" is major news media Al-Jazeera
I do not believe you just happened to be reading Al-Jazeera and came across this story, and decided to innocently post the story simply because you thought it was interesting and people should know about it. Instead I believe you were linked to it by someone in your posse, and you posted it here as part of your standard posse agenda.

I here freely admit I will disbelieve you even if you tell me otherwise. Given your history of posting, I do not think that's unfair, but I nonetheless provisionally feel bad for the small chance that I am incorrect.

Him wrote:
edit: I am sorry but it seems you're little tactic of moving away the discussion from what is important
I am not moving the discussion away. Your equating IDF service with service in occupied territory is the core issue. Everything you said was based on it. Being wrong in that particular makes all of the comments you based on it wrong as well.

Him wrote:
and tryng to portray my arguments as other than what they are has partly dragged me with you.
I portray your arguments more accurately than you do. See my more than a dozen quotes above.
_________________
"To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others."
- Anne-Sophie Swetchine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4175
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, being in the IDF effectively means taking part in the occupation, unless you refuse orders while in the army. Please, do explain why the shiministim are wrong in stating this as a reason for not joining the army.
It is not in any way shape or form possible for they themself to choose not to take part in occupation, through other means than refusing direct orders. And this is the core here. Even if some IDF are lucky enough to say, be stationed at an uncontested border, this is far from the most likely scenario and hardly a scenario guarnteed to continue indefinatly.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 2275
Location: 192.168.0.1

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him,

I shift through english Al-Jazeera almost daily. Could you tell me when that article you're refering to was posted?. I don't recall seeing that nor can't find it using a quick search.
_________________
Meu aerobarca esta cheoi de enguias
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
Page 10 of 12

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group