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Israeli youths reject army call-up
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Michael



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stomp! bash! roar!
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gally912



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you consider Al-Jazeera objective in its portrayal of *anything* related to Israel?
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Yes, being in the IDF effectively means taking part in the occupation, unless you refuse orders while in the army.
This is a different thing than you were saying. Normally when people bring up ESL, they do it to insult, but I genuinely must ask: is this an ESL problem? Do you really not realize that this is different from the fifteen quotations above? The "unless" you are adding makes it a completely different statement.

Refusing [immoral] orders while in the army is what this is all about. Refusing [immoral] orders while in the army is what would make the "Nuremburg stuff" apply. Refusing [immoral] orders while in the army is what the Courage to Refuse people are trying to do.

The students are not doing that. They have the option to enlist and refuse any immoral orders they're given. They do not take that option. Refusal to enlist is breaking the law, and it's utterly fair that they be punished for it.

Him wrote:
It is not in any way shape or form possible for they themself to choose not to take part in occupation, through other means than refusing direct orders.
What? Who brought up "other means"? Refusing direct [immoral] orders is exactly how they should choose not to take part in occupation, if they are so inclined. What they should not do is avoid serving entirely.

Him wrote:
Even if some IDF are lucky enough to say, be stationed at an uncontested border
No one is bringing up people being lucky to be stationed at an uncontested border. I'm talking specifically about the Courage to Refuse group. They refuse direct orders and get away with it. This is an option open to the students. They can serve in the military without being a part of the occupation they consider immoral.
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gally912 wrote:
Do you consider Al-Jazeera objective in its portrayal of *anything* related to Israel?


Anything yes, everything no. Read it side by side with your political brand of choice Israeli's newspaper and you get a fair picture. What one side brushes off, the other is bound to light up.
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gally912 wrote:
Do you consider Al-Jazeera objective in its portrayal of *anything* related to Israel?


At this point I doubt anyone is.
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo, your attention to detail in this argument is above and beyond the call. Hell mining those quotes, even out of the same thread you were posting in must have taken forever.

I am not sure what 'gist' Him is getting at that he formulated so poorly in his arguments except maybe that the occupied territories are bad. I don't think anyone has disagreed on that point. Hell no one ever argued that point. What was argued were the specific points that Sojobo has consistently and apparently tirelessly refreshed Him's memory on.

This thread has been a great read for me. Thank you Sojobo, Thank you to everyone else, and a very special thank you to Dennis. I've never actaully heard the term "Dickbag" before.
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gally912



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Location: Afghandi-land. Like candy-land, only not as nice.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soooo... they're weasel pussies, then? Consensus?
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LMAO! Gally, being a member of a longstanding all volunteer force one might think your opinion just a teeny bit biased...

I think the students in question might well and truly be deeply against what they view as the moral wrongs of their country. Good for them. I won't feel sorry for them going to jail to uphold their morals. They are willingly breaking a law to make a point. They are apparently not bright enough to realize that had they waited they could make their point and have a leg to stand on avoiding jail... Either that, or the whole 'moral objection' thing is just a really hideous misuse of current politics for them to get out of their civic duty. They seem such bright young people though, so clearly one would think they'd opt for the nobler course of serving their military time and refusing any unlawful orders that came their way.... Unless, of course they're more worried about the uniform cramping their style than morality....

Or they could just be stupid....
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i really don't get why people want them to be excused the jail time. i mean, if you want to change a law (in this case, i guess, the law that says you absolutely have to serve in the military, even if you are a conscientious objector), then that is often a good way of getting it changed: you publicize some sympathetic person or group suffering under the effects of this bad law. if you just excuse one group and let the law stand, then anyone wanting to behave in the same way will just run up against the same law.
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Him



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Him wrote:
Yes, being in the IDF effectively means taking part in the occupation, unless you refuse orders while in the army.
This is a different thing than you were saying. Normally when people bring up ESL, they do it to insult, but I genuinely must ask: is this an ESL problem? Do you really not realize that this is different from the fifteen quotations above? The "unless" you are adding makes it a completely different statement.

Refusing [immoral] orders while in the army is what this is all about. Refusing [immoral] orders while in the army is what would make the "Nuremburg stuff" apply. Refusing [immoral] orders while in the army is what the Courage to Refuse people are trying to do.

The students are not doing that. They have the option to enlist and refuse any immoral orders they're given. They do not take that option. Refusal to enlist is breaking the law, and it's utterly fair that they be punished for it.

Him wrote:
It is not in any way shape or form possible for they themself to choose not to take part in occupation, through other means than refusing direct orders.
What? Who brought up "other means"? Refusing direct [immoral] orders is exactly how they should choose not to take part in occupation, if they are so inclined. What they should not do is avoid serving entirely.

Him wrote:
Even if some IDF are lucky enough to say, be stationed at an uncontested border
No one is bringing up people being lucky to be stationed at an uncontested border. I'm talking specifically about the Courage to Refuse group. They refuse direct orders and get away with it. This is an option open to the students. They can serve in the military without being a part of the occupation they consider immoral.

Well, it's funny that you keep bringing up Courage to resist so much because, they too organize shiministim. I wonder why that is.
And again, the first quote is not different to what I have been saying, you are, maybe not purposefully, misreading what I have said. And the Courage to Refuse members regularly get sent to jail, they do not have a free pass of any sort. Like with the hundreds of conscript-dodgers that don't get sentenced the army realize they can't send them all to prison, or at least that's more of hassle.

well, okay let's break it down the simplest way possible: The IDF are doing an illegal occupation and commtting human rights violations. The shministism do not want to join the IDF for this reason. This is supported by the groups of soldiers already in the army refusing orders.

What CTtrees brought up pages ago about the nuremberg claus is that individual soldiers in an army are not legally responsible if not directly commiting warcrimes. But the shiministim are not portesting about legal accountability but what they feel is moral accountability.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Well, it's funny that you keep bringing up Courage to resist so much
I "keep bringing it up" because it very clearly demonstrates that your arguments have been wrong. One of these days it'll break through your unwillingness to listen, and you'll get it.

Him wrote:
the first quote is not different to what I have been saying, you are, maybe not purposefully, misreading what I have said.
You are wrong. The two ideas are different. I cannot tell how you are misunderstanding this. Is there anyone here you trust? They will absolutely confirm that the two things are different.

Him wrote:
And the Courage to Refuse members regularly get sent to jail
It is not regularly. It is actually pretty unusual:

Quote:
According to Livneh, the IDF generally elects not to deal with insubordinate soldiers in order to strengthen its claim that the phenomenon is negligible. The group "Courage to Refuse" was also surprised by Livneh's arrest, saying that such measures are rare.
Quote:
Another soldier who refused to fight in Gaza, Staff-Sergeant (Res.) Yitzhak Ben-Muha, said he was transferred to another company. "I waited at the base for two days until they told us that our job was to pitch tents for the fighting forces. I refused and was sent home the following day," he said.
Quote:
David Zonenschein of "Courage to Refuse" said that as opposed to Operation Defensive Shield (in the West Bank), when some 100 insubordinate soldiers were put on trial, "currently most of these cases end with a talk with the company commander".


Him wrote:
well, okay let's break it down the simplest way possible
You need to quit doing this. You are the one having English difficulties. You are the one completely unresponsive to logic. I have very clearly demonstrated that I am portraying your previous posts more honestly and correctly than are you.

Him wrote:
The shministism do not want to join the IDF for this reason.
And not joining the IDF is illegal, punishable by incarceration. Pretty cut-and-dried situation.

Him wrote:
This is supported by the groups of soldiers already in the army refusing orders.
If by "supported" you mean the soldiers approve, then that's fine, but if you instead mean the argument is supported, you are simply wrong. The soldiers' behaviour doesn't make the students' refusal to enlist any less illegal.

Him wrote:
But the shiministim are not portesting about legal accountability but what they feel is moral accountability.
They are not accountable, period. Or are you saying that the Courage to Refuse people are to blame for the crimes you think are committed? No? Then you have no argument.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the brand of Communism Him subscribes to an ideology or a cult?

I can't tell.
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's not so much a cult as it is a shitload of romanticized ignorance combined with a complete inability to comprehend the world as it really is.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope you're talking about Him's madness and not about communism in general 'cos else we gotta throw down, dawg

we gotta throw down good

i aint playing

what's up?

what's up?

But if it's about Him's madness, then I fully support everything you say.
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gally912



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, you mean there ARE communists who have the ability to see the world how it really is?

I call shenanigans.
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