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Minimum wage and other things we aren't entitled to
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freealans



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure on how well priced the home health aid would be. I assume that it would depend on what services you would need. It is mostly company assisted. but it can be very expensive. Just from the point of nursing homes, it costs almost 6 thousand a month to have someone in a nursing home.
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
whatever you're driving at, you seem to be avoiding the standard operating relationship in order to focus on a niche.


Only because mouse has brought this particular niche up to justify a wide ranging policy.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freealans wrote:
I am not sure on how well priced the home health aid would be. I assume that it would depend on what services you would need. It is mostly company assisted. but it can be very expensive. Just from the point of nursing homes, it costs almost 6 thousand a month to have someone in a nursing home.


that, i'm sure is true.

and that money does not go directly to the healthcare workers.

and companies that own nursing homes anf provide homehealthcare aides i'm sure are very profitable.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
Major Tom wrote:
whatever you're driving at, you seem to be avoiding the standard operating relationship in order to focus on a niche.


Only because mouse has brought this particular niche up to justify a wide ranging policy.


she mentioned a job category.

you're talking about some sort of specific business arrangement that applies to some undefined segment of that category.

i'm not clear what you're trying to say about that subsegment, or why.
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freealans



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
freealans wrote:
I am not sure on how well priced the home health aid would be. I assume that it would depend on what services you would need. It is mostly company assisted. but it can be very expensive. Just from the point of nursing homes, it costs almost 6 thousand a month to have someone in a nursing home.


that, i'm sure is true.

and that money does not go directly to the healthcare workers.

and companies that own nursing homes anf provide homehealthcare aides i'm sure are very profitable.

no most cna's get about 10 dollars an hour starting, which is horibble for the work they do, lpn's start about 25 to 30 dollars and hour, and rn's about the 30 dollar an hour, but to be an lpn or and rn I would say you need at least three years of school.
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
Major Tom wrote:
whatever you're driving at, you seem to be avoiding the standard operating relationship in order to focus on a niche.


Only because mouse has brought this particular niche up to justify a wide ranging policy.


she mentioned a job category.

you're talking about some sort of specific business arrangement that applies to some undefined segment of that category.

i'm not clear what you're trying to say about that subsegment, or why.


The problem is that this category is mentioned by mouse as being a fairly skilled field that should have a higher wage. I don't disagree with this assessment. I do disagree with this assessment being the basis for raising the minimum wage across the board. There must be some way to address this particular segment without making the service too expensive to the customers that use it, and without raising the minimum wage on jobs that I do not think are necessary to have the minimum wage raised.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and so, we are back to my point with regard to this segment:

why should the government pay for the businesses' cost of doing business?

isn't that the businesses responsibility?
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not talking about the business. I'm talking about the wages involved.


Are you assuming that the business can just absorb the cost of paying these employees more without increasing costs to the customer? I thought Usagi did a fine job of pointing out the problem with that.
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freealans



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
I'm not talking about the business. I'm talking about the wages involved.


Are you assuming that the business can just absorb the cost of paying these employees more without increasing costs to the customer? I thought Usagi did a fine job of pointing out the problem with that.


this is just my point of view, not based on any schooling or anything but, I would say they will have to change that. just from the stand point of if people don't have money to pay for what they would like to buy, they aren't going to buy it. They will have to look to lower thier bottom line, if they plan to many any money. what is the old addage? you need to spend money to make money?
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trustedfaith



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Stewart

Stephen Colbert

Minimum Wage Rally
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freealans wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
I'm not talking about the business. I'm talking about the wages involved.


Are you assuming that the business can just absorb the cost of paying these employees more without increasing costs to the customer? I thought Usagi did a fine job of pointing out the problem with that.


this is just my point of view, not based on any schooling or anything but, I would say they will have to change that. just from the stand point of if people don't have money to pay for what they would like to buy, they aren't going to buy it. They will have to look to lower thier bottom line, if they plan to many any money. what is the old addage? you need to spend money to make money?


This is true in general, but for the specific field mouse mentioned, and the one for which MT and I have been discussing, it is a bit different.

The way I see it, those who need in home medical care are the ones hiring home health aides. This is a necessity, not a luxory. Given that it's a necessity, I do think the business needs to be handled differently.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do you mean that, given that the provided services are a necessity and not a choice, the companies that are involved in collecting the fees from the customers and paying the salaries to the qualified employees are allowed to overcharge and underpay in order to maintain a fat profit margin?

that sounds pretty monstrous.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freealans wrote:
Major Tom wrote:
freealans wrote:
I am not sure on how well priced the home health aid would be. I assume that it would depend on what services you would need. It is mostly company assisted. but it can be very expensive. Just from the point of nursing homes, it costs almost 6 thousand a month to have someone in a nursing home.


that, i'm sure is true.

and that money does not go directly to the healthcare workers.

and companies that own nursing homes anf provide homehealthcare aides i'm sure are very profitable.

no most cna's get about 10 dollars an hour starting, which is horibble for the work they do, lpn's start about 25 to 30 dollars and hour, and rn's about the 30 dollar an hour, but to be an lpn or and rn I would say you need at least three years of school.


i was taking about the aides - the ones who spend time in the home, cleaning the patient, giving them their pills, perhaps changing bandages, stuff like that. there is another class of home aide types who do things that the patient can't do for themselves - shop for groceries, do the laundry and some housecleaning, run errands, etc. these are not nurses of any level - it would be far too expensive. some agencies will periodically send out an lpn or an rn, to check on the patient's progress - but they usually aren't coming every day, and they don't stay very long.

some of this is covered by medicare and/or state or local agencies, although sometimes there are time limits (and it requires a certain level of doctor's orders). others can be hired by the patient or family, either through an agency or (i imagine) directly. so it's kind of all over the board.

these are tasks that don't take much training, but they are essential. and they require a certain level of responsibility.

and ags, you keep overlooking other groups, like janitors and maids. lots of those around, fulfilling an essential service and (depending on the situation) requiring a certain level of responsibility. yes, i suppose you could hire college students as janitorial staff, and have them turn over every few months (which incidentally will raise your costs, as there is always _some_ training for the job - which goes out the door along with said student). where do you put things like this in your scheme?
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
do you mean that, given that the provided services are a necessity and not a choice, the companies that are involved in collecting the fees from the customers and paying the salaries to the qualified employees are allowed to overcharge and underpay in order to maintain a fat profit margin?

that sounds pretty monstrous.


Where the heck do you get that from my points? When did I ever offer that companies must maintain fat profit margins? Am I that bad at articulating my ideas?

Well, probably... Embarassed

I'm looking at the problem from the perspective of costs. The customers (those in need of home health care aides) will only be able to pay a certain amount for aides. If the wages of those aides are artificially raised by a significant amount, who is going to pay for that rise? I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that the business that employs the aides will be able to absorb all of those costs without passing them on to the customer. Given the situations that require health care aides and how quickly medical bills can depleat personal savings, I'm not sure that customers are going to be able to afford the increase in costs. I wonder how many of them already afford the costs.

Where is the money going to come from to pay these home health care aides a the mandated higher wage?
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
and ags, you keep overlooking other groups, like janitors and maids.


Actually not. If you go back, I'm pretty sure I addressed jobs like janitors; they actually, in my experience, make a fair buck. Jobs that are not very desirable, or in some cases "dirty", often pay a really good wage. I know of several janitors that make more than an adequate living. I also know that this is especially true of garbagemen.

In the case of maids, I'll go back to Usagi's principles. Who is going to pay for the artificial increase in wages? It would be nice to assume that large businesses can absorb the costs in their profits (this kind of class warfare approach is not one I like very much) but the fact is that either they will pass the cost on to customers or reduce the labor pool. In the case of individuals that hire maids, I can see many that would reach a point where it's too expensive to employ a maid and will look to alternatives; hence losing business. Really, Usagi does a much better job as explaining this principle.

In any case, I would never want to make a person have to work their entire lives as janitors or maids. I think these types of jopbs could be entry level positions, or supplimental income jobs. I don't think anybody should have to support themselves or their families off of these types of jobs. There will be some cases, however, where some of these types of jobs will be lucrative enough to employ people for great amounts of time: like in waste disposal, and the janitors at my wife's school district (I was actually jealous of their salary when I talked to one of the Janitors. It's a crappy job with some bad hours sometimes, but that's made up fo with the salary they have.

mouse wrote:
lots of those around, fulfilling an essential service and (depending on the situation) requiring a certain level of responsibility. yes, i suppose you could hire college students as janitorial staff, and have them turn over every few months (which incidentally will raise your costs, as there is always _some_ training for the job - which goes out the door along with said student). where do you put things like this in your scheme?


I think the training costs will be far less than the costs involved in raising these wages to a livable level; especially given the low skill jobs involved.

I just prefer the approach of teaching people the skills necessary to move beyond low skill jobs.
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