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Heroes, Mythology, and Religion
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Christo



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Just pointing out that with the expection of Moses, the ones you're mentionned are taken from last century fiction books
Guilty.

Quote:
Our specie, as you mention it, is far from unified. Legend and myth are shaped by both land and events. You won't find anywhere a flooding myth except near the mediterranean for a reason.
I don't think that's accurate. I've heard from various sources that the flood story is fairly universal. I did a quick google check and came up with [url=
http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html]this[/url].

And I think that a ubiquitous flood story makes sense in the same way that hero's crossing water does. As someone pointed out, water's a symbol of life. A lot of that probably has to do with the fact that we spend the first nine months of our existence in water.
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The Highlord



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're citing "Northwest Creation" as a credible source that the majority of cultures (all sixteen of them!) have a flood myth? Holy shit.
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Christo



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
...oops, sorry, i forgot. you are ignoring my comments.


Mouse, I'm reading your comments; I just haven't responded to them. I'm not trying to be rude.

There were a bunch of responses to my original post that were everything from intelligent to belligerent to tangential to nonsensical. I'm not really sure what to make of yours. It seems like you're trying to pick a fight, which I'm not interested in. I mean, how am I "demanding" anything of you?
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Christo



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Highlord wrote:
You're citing "Northwest Creation" as a credible source that the majority of cultures (all sixteen of them!) have a flood myth? Holy shit.


Dude, relax.

I've heard from a bunch of different sources that many cultures have a flood myth. It's not a huge point that I'm trying to make so I didn't do a lot of research. Wikipedia's got an article here. If you want to tear it apart, feel free.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It didn't seem so much like mouse was picking a fight as explaining to you why so many responses are belligerent.

The fact that you don't seem to realize that off the bat is a little worrisome.

PS: linking to -wikipedia- after northwest creation made me giggle. A lot.
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The Highlord



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too hear self-serving propaganda repeated often, from many sources! Funny, that.
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Christo



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Highlord wrote:
I too hear self-serving propaganda repeated often, from many sources! Funny, that.


I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about. Self-serving? Propaganda?
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Yorick



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christo wrote:
intelligent to belligerent to tangential to nonsensical.

Belligerent? BELLIGERENT? How dare you call us belligerent!


note to self, find out what "belligerent" means
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The Highlord



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christo wrote:
I've heard from a bunch of different sources that many cultures have a flood myth.

Self-serving propaganda, oft repeated, to lend validity to the many stripes of creationism.
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Mr Gary



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't we all just get along ... and also admit that, with it's jack boots, leather jackets, weapon fetishism, conspiracy theories and secret enemies who control the media, The Matrix is Nazi porn?
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christo wrote:
The Highlord wrote:
You're citing "Northwest Creation" as a credible source that the majority of cultures (all sixteen of them!) have a flood myth? Holy shit.


Dude, relax.

I've heard from a bunch of different sources that many cultures have a flood myth. It's not a huge point that I'm trying to make so I didn't do a lot of research. Wikipedia's got an article here. If you want to tear it apart, feel free.


The near ubiquity of flood myths is largely due to human habitat preferences. Even in this modern age of pumps, pipes, and mass irrigation 80% of humanity lives on coastlines of river banks. Seasonal flooding is a reality that only got worse with agriculture and wide spread cutting down of forests to make more room for it. In the old world you can add the Black sea experience to the list of reasons for flood myths. It's only about six thousand years old and when the natural damn holding back the mediteranean finally broke it was like Niagra falls multiplied by ten thousand for YEARS.

It's very easy to take current circumstances for granted and make assumptions about ancient life on that basis, but it's misleading as hell.

Pop ethnography is often completely full of crap. Unfortunately it's wide spread. I had a guy the other day marveling at the fact that Egypt had contact with the new world thousands of years ago... I did a double take and asked him what his evidence for that was and of course he brought up the pyramids.... Well on the face of it it certainly seems strange I suppose, until you realize that one of the easiest stable stone structures you can make on the monumental scale is a pyramid. Never mind that the two groups built them SEVERAL thousands of years apart.

People seem to like the crackpot stuff because they like a sense of mystery or magic, or so they say when you rain on their parade with actual evidence. Unweaving the rainbow they call it (was it Keats who wrote that?). I've heard lots of excuses for intellectual laziness but that one takes the cake. I will never understand how anyone can think scientific explanations aren't every bit as wonderous, or even more so than all the new age bullshit and old school superstition that gets pedaled around these days.

As far as common themes showing up over and over again in literature, you can chalk at least part of that up to maybe a little window on human nature and more of it up to things like writing only being independently invented twice (three times if you count the inca knot system which is looking more and more like a written language to them these days) and only one of those times in the old world. The fact that it spread so far and wide via idea diffusion or outright theft is testament to just how much contact people of different cultures had with each other. Agriculture, by comparison was invented at least nine times independently.

I don't find the idea that certain themes appeal to audiences at large very mysterious. We are all, after all, people. Is the idea that sharing the same physiology necessitates having some of the very same wants and needs all that odd? I don't think so. Is the idea of flood myths so far fetched when most ancient humans lived on or near large bodies of water (rivers, lakes, oceans) and thus regularly experienced floods? Again I don't think so.

It's all well and good to be fascinated with the human condition, but lets not invoke magical what ifs when there are perfectly sensible explanations for a lot of these "mysteries".
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Mr Gary



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 6218
Location: Some pub in England

PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
Christo wrote:
The Highlord wrote:
You're citing "Northwest Creation" as a credible source that the majority of cultures (all sixteen of them!) have a flood myth? Holy shit.


Dude, relax.

I've heard from a bunch of different sources that many cultures have a flood myth. It's not a huge point that I'm trying to make so I didn't do a lot of research. Wikipedia's got an article here. If you want to tear it apart, feel free.


The near ubiquity of flood myths is largely due to human habitat preferences ...


This.

I like having E-boy around. He's like a prehistoric WoC.
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:

The near ubiquity of flood myths is largely due to human habitat preferences. Even in this modern age of pumps, pipes, and mass irrigation 80% of humanity lives on coastlines of river banks. Seasonal flooding is a reality that only got worse with agriculture and wide spread cutting down of forests to make more room for it. In the old world you can add the Black sea experience to the list of reasons for flood myths. It's only about six thousand years old and when the natural damn holding back the mediteranean finally broke it was like Niagra falls multiplied by ten thousand for YEARS.


Read an article recently mentioning the Mediterranean' flooding might have happened in fact within a month, not year, span. The study was based on Gibraltar's isthmus floor strata analysis.

And, barring a mistake, I don't recall of a flooding myth in Norse mythos. Celtic version of flooding isn't known to me either but for Bretonnic' legend that, in the future, earth will be swallowed by inner sea.
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Christo



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
The near ubiquity of flood myths is largely due to human habitat preferences.
First of all. Hell yeah. Your post was way thought provoking. A friend of mine shared with me another theory for the flood myths today concerning the fact that there are seashell fossils on mountaintops the world over. People finding them would naturally assume that water was once over the mountain--when in fact the mountains pushed up out of the water. That same theory was used to explain the appearance of dragons across cultures. People found dinosaur fossils. I don't know. Just a theory.

Quote:
I had a guy the other day marveling at the fact that Egypt had contact with the new world thousands of years ago
No joke, I saw a thing on the Discovery Channel that had experts saying the pyramids in the New World proved the existence of aliens. But I'm totally with you on the fact that it's just a simple design.

Quote:
As far as common themes showing up over and over again in literature, you can chalk at least part of that up to maybe a little window on human nature and more of it up to things like writing only being independently invented twice
I'm almost 100% with you. I'd just say that the hero's journey crops up in cultures without a written language. So I'm more into the human nature side of your argument. I'm way into examining that window. I don't think there's anything magical about the hero's journey; I just think it's interesting. It gets me thinking about what the human experience has been.
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Virginia (Much barfiness)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
E-boy wrote:

The near ubiquity of flood myths is largely due to human habitat preferences. Even in this modern age of pumps, pipes, and mass irrigation 80% of humanity lives on coastlines of river banks. Seasonal flooding is a reality that only got worse with agriculture and wide spread cutting down of forests to make more room for it. In the old world you can add the Black sea experience to the list of reasons for flood myths. It's only about six thousand years old and when the natural damn holding back the mediteranean finally broke it was like Niagra falls multiplied by ten thousand for YEARS.


Read an article recently mentioning the Mediterranean' flooding might have happened in fact within a month, not year, span. The study was based on Gibraltar's isthmus floor strata analysis.

And, barring a mistake, I don't recall of a flooding myth in Norse mythos. Celtic version of flooding isn't known to me either but for Bretonnic' legend that, in the future, earth will be swallowed by inner sea.


Well I did say Near ubiquitous. Smile It's hard to say how long it may have taken the black sea to flood in it's entirety. However, it had to have happened reasonably quickly as there has been minimal layer mixing which they know because the depths are nearly oxygen free. There are near perfectly preserved villages down there. As for how one defines 'reasonably quick' the piece I read on it was pretty conservative. There may well be newer estimates based on better numbers now.
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