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Rumsfeld loses at Godwin's Law
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MsFrisby



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:11 am    Post subject: Rumsfeld loses at Godwin's Law Reply with quote

Quote:
Rumsfeld lashes out at Bush's critics

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military WriterTue Aug 29, 2:19 PM ET

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday the world faces "a new type of fascism" and likened critics of the Bush administration's war strategy to those who tried to appease the Nazis in the 1930s.

In unusually explicit terms, Rumsfeld portrayed the administration's critics as suffering from "moral or intellectual confusion" about what threatens the nation's security. His remarks amounted to one of his most pointed defenses of President Bush' war policies and was among his toughest attacks on Bush's critics.

Speaking to several thousand veterans at the American Legion's national convention, Rumsfeld recited what he called the lessons of history, including the failure to confront Hitler. He quoted Winston Churchill as observing that trying to accommodate Hitler was "a bit like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last."

"I recount this history because once again we face similar challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of fascism," he said.

"Can we truly afford to believe that somehow, some way, vicious extremists can be appeased?" he asked.

"Can we truly afford to return to the destructive view that America — not the enemy — is the real source of the world's troubles?"

Rumsfeld spoke to the American Legion as part of a coordinated White House strategy, in advance of the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, to take the offensive against administration critics at a time of doubt about the future of Iraq and growing calls to withdraw U.S. troops.

Rumsfeld recalled a string of recent terrorist attacks, from 9/11 to deadly bombings in Bali, London and Madrid, and said it should be obvious to anyone that terrorists must be confronted, not appeased.

"But some seem not to have learned history's lessons," he said, adding that part of the problem is that the American news media have tended to emphasize the negative rather than the positive.

He said, for example, that more media attention was given to U.S. soldiers' abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib than to the fact that Sgt. 1st Class Paul Ray Smith received the Medal of Honor.

He did acknowledge that the U.S. military has its own "bad actors — the ones who dominate the headlines today — who don't live up to the standards of the oath and of our country." But he added that they are a small percentage of the hundreds of thousands of troops who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Those who know the truth need to speak out against these kinds of myths and lies and distortions being told about our troops and about our country," he said.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was addressing the American Legion convention later Tuesday, and Bush is scheduled to speak here later in the week. On Monday, Vice President Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld made separate addresses to the national convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Reno, Nev.

Rumsfeld made similar arguments in Reno about doubters of the administration's approach to fighting terrorism, saying too many in this country want to "blame America first" and ignore the enemy.

Sen. Jack Reed (news, bio, voting record), D-R.I., a former Army officer and member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said in an interview Tuesday that "no one has misread history more than" Rumsfeld.

"It's a political rant to cover up his incompetence," said Reed, a longtime critic of Rumsfeld's handling of the war.

Reed said he took particular exception to the implication that critics of Pentagon policies are unpatriotic, citing "scores of patriotic Americans of both parties who are highly critical of his handling of the Department of Defense."

Rumsfeld defended the war in Iraq, saying that while U.S. military tactics have changed as conditions on the ground have changed, the administration's war strategy has remained constant: "to empower the Iraqi people to defend, govern and rebuild their own country."

In arguing against giving up in Iraq, he said people should know from history that wars are never easy.

"You know from experience that in every war — personally — there have been mistakes and setbacks and casualties," he said. "War is," as Clemenceau said, `A series of catastrophes that results in victory."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060829/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/rumsfeld_20

Funny. In MY history lessons, I learned about some wars that didn't result in victory, just catastrophe. Like.. oh.. Vietnam. And I wonder why the media didn't go with the world war two style of propaganda and only broadcast the happy soldiers wearing their pretty ribbons for being brave boys instead of a horrible abuse of the helpless and degraded prisoners by our own who were supposed to be the good guys.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.
On a lighter note, this makes me wonder if the suspects held in Gitmo aren't actually having a Hogan's Heroes-esque time of things.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:24 am    Post subject: Re: Rumsfeld loses at Godwin's Law Reply with quote

MsFrisby wrote:
Quote:
He did acknowledge that the U.S. military has its own "bad actors — the ones who dominate the headlines today — who don't live up to the standards of the oath and of our country." But he added that they are a small percentage of the hundreds of thousands of troops who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan.


he forgot to mention his, cheney's and bush's tireless efforts to make sure that the "standards of the oath and of our country" have been kept as low as inhumanly possible
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Sam



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:28 pm    Post subject: I need to go back and time and warn myself, world still nuts Reply with quote

The editorial block in the news today was anything but demure over Rumsfeld playing the Nazi card. The RMN editorial letterhead called it outright strawmanning and terrible historical comparison.

Jack Reed's comments have stuck the most. The quote "It's a political rant to cover up his incompetence" is glued to the wrap-up of nearly every story.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't think he's been let out in public much as of late except for that very purpose...

...i mean, sometimes it's to cover up bush's incompetence, but still...
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kame



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hubris + incompetence = Donald Rumsfeld
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think sen. reed has just joined my list of Really Good Guys.

honestly, those people in the administration are just so completely disconnected from reality. clearly, neither our tactics nor our strategy is working real well in iraq - and i doubt they've made much of a change in either. and he's completely out to lunch, comparing terrorism to agression by a recognized nation (like nazi germany). we can't just treat all of "them" as identical - they aren't.

i have visions of the next president making a couple of reality-based decisions, and having iraq quiet in a year. you may say i'm a dreamer....
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sporko



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but you're not the only one!
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:07 am    Post subject: dominos, anyone? Reply with quote

so on the drive home tonight, the radio aired a quote from bush - something along the lines of "we have to fight them in iraq so we don't have to face them here". clearly, he has no idea that previous attacks in the u.s. and elsewhere were not actually done by invading armies, but by a few people who slipped in and did much of the work in the country they were going to attack, and who came from a number of countries (none of them, apparently, iraq). no, somehow, if we can only defeat the insurgents in iraq, we will somehow manage to end all of islamic terrorism. probably osama bin laden will just turn himself in.

how is it that people still buy into the things this man says?
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Amilam



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ms Frisby, didn’t you know that Godwin’s can only be used to answer people comparing the Bush administration to Hitler? Like all Neo Con logic, it only applies one way. Just like the Valerie Plane outing and the leaks received by the New York Times.

It’s bad enough that you have random shit flinging pundits and their lackeys throwing this around, but when did it become acceptable for some of the most high profile politicians in America to resort to it?

[quote=“Bush”]BUSH [clip]: Leaving before the job would be done would send a message that America really is no longer engaged nor cares about the form of governments in the Middle East. Leaving before the job was done would be to send a signal to our troops that the sacrifices they made were not worth it. Leaving before the job is done would be a disaster, and that's what we're saying. I will never question the patriotism of somebody who disagrees with me. This has nothing to do with patriotism. It has everything to do with understanding the world in which we live. [/quote]

Why not draw the lines at comments like this? It manages to mindlessly hurl the Administration's platitude's while reducing those who object to it as ignorant. The good old fashioned political banter of questioning the intelligence of your opposition without attacking their patriotism or bringing in Hitler. Ahh how I yearn for those idyllic times.

Not surprisingly aforementioned shit flingers declined.
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Amilam



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ms Frisby, didn’t you know that Godwin’s can only be used to answer people comparing the Bush administration to Hitler? Like all Neo Con logic, it only applies one way. Just like the Valerie Plane outing and the leaks received by the New York Times.

It’s bad enough that you have random shit flinging pundits and their lackeys throwing this around, but when did it become acceptable for some of the most high profile politicians in America to resort to it?

Quote:
Bush: "Leaving before the job would be done would send a message that America really is no longer engaged nor cares about the form of governments in the Middle East. Leaving before the job was done would be to send a signal to our troops that the sacrifices they made were not worth it. Leaving before the job is done would be a disaster, and that's what we're saying. I will never question the patriotism of somebody who disagrees with me. This has nothing to do with patriotism. It has everything to do with understanding the world in which we live."


Why not draw the lines at comments like this? It manages to mindlessly hurl the Administration's platitudes while reducing those who object to it as ignorant. The good old fashioned political banter of questioning the intelligence of your opposition without attacking their patriotism or bringing in Hitler. Ahh how I yearn for those idyllic times.

Not surprisingly aforementioned shit flingers declined.
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Him



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Rumsfeld loses at Godwin's Law Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
MsFrisby wrote:
Quote:
He did acknowledge that the U.S. military has its own "bad actors — the ones who dominate the headlines today — who don't live up to the standards of the oath and of our country." But he added that they are a small percentage of the hundreds of thousands of troops who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan.


he forgot to mention his, cheney's and bush's tireless efforts to make sure that the "standards of the oath and of our country" have been kept as low as inhumanly possible
Did you hear the news about more prisoner abuse, murdering of civilians and rape (of minors)? Because it was in the newspaper here a couple of days ago. Abu Grahib was, I believe, only the tip of the iceberg.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, actually, i haven't heard
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

him may have heard about the haditha and hamdania cases - those are just starting to come to trial. haditha involved a group of marines accused of kidnapping and murdering an iraqi, hamdania was a case of another group killing 24 civilians, after one of their group was killed by in ied. the rape case, i think, was something else - i think that guy was just convicted.

but hey, ideologically, we got it all over those other guys.
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smeat



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials wrote:
It's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a Fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.

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