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[fucked up]So...uh, that wikileaks thing
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6107
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, the military lied about this incident and covered it up. doesn't surprise me or shock me in the slightest, nor should it surprise or shock anyone who has paid attention to, like, y'know, history.

that doesn't make it any less wrong, or any less destructive to a free and democratic society.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
mouse wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
The coverup is government doing what government does. Anyone shocked or suprised by it has been living in a hole for the past...two hundred or so years.


seriously, this is your argument? the government has always lied to us, why expect anything different?

...you don't see anything wrong with that mindset?


i'm not really surprised, no. but the day i stop being shocked....that's the day i stop being human.


What does your shock accomplish to rectify the situation? What are you personally going to do to see that it doesn't happen again? Why get completely worked up over events beyond your control, or even influence? No one..NO ONE is going to have a government that does not lie to or hide things from its people. I should spend my time dwelling on horrible shit the government hides because....why exactly? I'm aware of it, my representative has proven to be fairly principled for a congressman and i continue to vote for him for that reason. My power comes from hydroelectric and i pay 10 dollars a month more to ensure that the energy is the greenest the power company offers, i buy fair trade food when i can afford it, avoid wal-mart, and walk everywhere i go. I have a cousin in the military who has had long conversations with me about watching his friends get blown to bits by ied's and rpgs. So yeah, i can understand being trigger happy when you see a large group of people near a firefight carrying heavy equipment and moving tactically. I'm curious as to what people here want beyond an echo chamber for their outrage. Outrage that it seems they never really act on but talk about a lot. Its very easy to claim it was obvious they were unarmed after the fact, when we have already confirmed it. Its very easy to condemn the things coming out of the soldiers mouths when you sit at home comfortable and safe. Its not so easy to remember that these are mostly 18 to 20 year old kids, thrown into a scorching desert and a situation that might see them blown up for driving down a street. But hey, everyone here was a paragon of tact, good judgement and steely nerves back when they were that age right? If you want people held accountable for hiding the video by all means work to hold them accountable, but don't act SHOCKED that they did. What does releasing it accomplish? A lot of sound and fury and the war marches on.


i see you haven't read my entire two posts in this thread. when you feel like being rational, and actually _reading_ what people write, rather than just making assumptions, we can talk.

but just to clarify (not that you will bother to read this): i am shocked/upset/angry/whatever you like at THE GOVERNMENT COVER UP. and i do things like right to my representatives and vote. which of course you figure is pointless and doing nothing - but i figure it's one hell of a lot better than just shrugging my shoulders and saying "it's what governments do, what do you expect".

i expect my government to change, that's what. and it won't change if i just accept whatever it does.
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Katrin



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Look at the number of dead and how they died (specifically the articles I've linked to which the U.S army has yet to sufficiently explain), look at the potential motive, look at previous operations by the CIA. And honestly what better scene for targeted killings than a war zone? there is a means, there is a motive, there is a victim. Nothing points to, say the bombing of the two arab speaking television channels, resulting in several victims, being a mistake. Or maybe the U.S army is just really, really good at making mistakes when it comes to journalists. But I am open to the possibility that the U.S troops are just really incompetent and trigger happy.


You've really entrenched yourself in such an extremist stance that there's really no other response than "lol, you're stupid."


Last edited by Katrin on Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
I do think the bombing of Al-Jazeera hq in Baghdad qualifies. The Bush admin seemed to have a special dislike towards Al-Jazeera.


I was going to some flip comment while linking to Conservapedia's article on Al-Jazeera, but... they're surprisingly moderate in their reaction to the network. Even their article on Fox has more negative points. So, um... Hrm. Not really sure what to make of that.

Monkey: tl;dr - lrn2¶
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouse it wont change even if you DO write and bitch about it, people died in protests in the sixties about crap like this and here we are 50 years later with the same stuff going on. If it makes you feel better to write your congressman and be outraged on the internet that's fine, but in a month there will be some new outrage that attracts peoples attention and any baby steps that may have been accomplished toward dealing with this one will be buried in committee. Look at the valdez scandal. People have been waiting for government action on that for the majority of my life at this point. It wont change because a significant portion of america just doesnt give a shit, or is cheering it on. Our country kind of sucks that way.

It's a goddamn tragedy, but the place is a war zone. Mistakes and monsters are made in a war zone and no amount of paper treaty and rules of engagement is going to completely prevent it from happening.
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Him



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Katrin wrote:
Quote:
Look at the number of dead and how they died (specifically the articles I've linked to which the U.S army has yet to sufficiently explain), look at the potential motive, look at previous operations by the CIA. And honestly what better scene for targeted killings than a war zone? there is a means, there is a motive, there is a victim. Nothing points to, say the bombing of the two arab speaking television channels, resulting in several victims, being a mistake. Or maybe the U.S army is just really, really good at making mistakes when it comes to journalists. But I am open to the possibility that the U.S troops are just really incompetent and trigger happy.


You've really entrenched yourself in such an extremist stance that there's really no other response than "lol, you're stupid."

Coming from you that's a badge of honour.
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Him



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Mouse it wont change even if you DO write and bitch about it, people died in protests in the sixties about crap like this and here we are 50 years later with the same stuff going on.

That's because the New Left in the US eventually failed. How and why does go a bit beyond the scope of this thread.
I see your mind is set, nothing has changed, nothing will ever change. Acceptance is not that far a step from support. At the very least you're just making a massive cop-out. Plus you are wrong about the change bit.

CTrees wrote:
Him wrote:
I do think the bombing of Al-Jazeera hq in Baghdad qualifies. The Bush admin seemed to have a special dislike towards Al-Jazeera.


I was going to some flip comment while linking to Conservapedia's article on Al-Jazeera, but... they're surprisingly moderate in their reaction to the network. Even their article on Fox has more negative points. So, um... Hrm. Not really sure what to make of that.

Monkey: tl;dr - lrn2¶

This is serious lulz though:
That their logo consists of the reworking of the Arabic word Al-Jazeera (the peninsula) into a stylized drawing of a flame, might or might not be significant.
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The Highlord



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Katrin wrote:
You've really entrenched yourself in such an extremist stance that there's really no other response than "lol, you're stupid."

Oi, no need for name calling. While "crazy" could be a legitimate adjective to express how you see Him's stance, calling him stupid really isn't.
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Him



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excerpts from interviews conducted in July 2007 with Baghdad residents who witnessed the attack:

Quote:
RICK ROWLEY: We asked the crowd of people what might have prompted the attack, and they said that when the journalist arrived, residents quickly gathered around him.

WITNESS 2: [translated] The group of civilians had gathered here because people need cooking oil and gas. They wanted to demonstrate in front of the media and show that they need things like oil, gas, water and electricity. The situation here is dramatically deteriorating. The journalists were walking around, and then the Americans started shooting. They started shooting randomly and targeted peaceful civilians from the neighborhood.

WITNESS 3: [translated] There were children in the car. Were they carrying weapons? There were two children.

WITNESS 2: [translated] Do we help the wounded or kill them? They killed all the wounded and drove over their bodies. Everyone witnessed it. And the journalist was among those who was injured, and the armored vehicle drove over his body.

WITNESS 3: [translated] The US forces, who call themselves “friendly” forces, were telling us on speakers that they were here to protect and help us. We heard those words very clearly. But what we saw was the opposite of that. We demand the American Congress and President Bush supervise their soldiers’ actions in Iraq.

Quote:
RICK ROWLEY: I mean, so, first of all, there is no reason at all to believe or to conclude that any of the people in that picture are armed insurgents. I mean, you can see two men with Kalashnikovs, but this is 2007 in Baghdad. This is the height of the civil war, when dozens of bodies a day were being picked up from the street, when sectarian militias filled the Iraqi security forces, the police and the army. Every neighborhood in Baghdad organized its own protection force. And it was legal at the time for every household to own a Kalashnikov in Iraq, and every household I ever went to did. So the presence of two men, dangling at their sides Kalashnikovs, in a crowd of civilians who have no weapons at all, I mean, is absolutely no—I mean, it’s—the whole thing is ridiculous.
Source: One Day After 2007 Attack, Witnesses Describe US Killings of Iraqi Civilians
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Him



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, according to the witnesses on the scene the man, one of the journalists, being driven over was still alive before being run over.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avoided topic due to amount of Rolling Eyesz in this thread and sojobo covered anything else I would want to say about gally's wafflogic, but apparently the release of the video has indeed caused the military to review whether or not it was a good idea to, um, y'know, have the latter half of that videotaped action (the van shooting) be (publically) considered acceptable under rules of engagement

derp a dee
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kame



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize for the hyperbole I spewed in this thread, and the massive brain cramp.

The only wish I have is that justice be done, for the ones who died in this attack, and the hundreds of thousands of others who have been killed. That is the least that America owes the people of Iraq.
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tinkeringIdiot



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems the new general is taking the public handling of civilian deaths - accidental or otherwise - very seriously and is using a very different approach.

CSMonitor wrote:
Flanked by dozens of Afghan soldiers, Vice Adm. William McRaven, head of Joint Special Operations Command, spent an hour at the scene of the killings. “I am the commander of the men who accidentally killed your loved ones,” Admiral McRaven told Haji Sharabuddin, the family patriarch. “I came here today to send my condolences to you and to your family and to your friends. I also came today to ask your forgiveness for these terrible tragedies.”
...
Arriving in a cavalcade of trucks and armored vehicles, three Afghan soldiers pinned down a sheep and held a blade to its throat in a traditional Afghan gesture seeking clemency. Then an elder summoned them inside and McRaven offered his condolences.


The killings took place on the 11th of February. During the investigation there was very little public acknowledgment from the military, but once it was determined that the US forces were in the wrong they sent the commanding officer to personally and publicly apologize. Perhaps some progress is being made here.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah war is pretty goddamned fucked up by its nature and the two most fucked up and regrettable parts about it are collateral killings and blue on blue, both of which will happen frequently. Clemency, apology, and genuine regret is helpful both morally and tactically.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Mouse it wont change even if you DO write and bitch about it, people died in protests in the sixties about crap like this and here we are 50 years later with the same stuff going on. If it makes you feel better to write your congressman and be outraged on the internet that's fine, but in a month there will be some new outrage that attracts peoples attention and any baby steps that may have been accomplished toward dealing with this one will be buried in committee. Look at the valdez scandal. People have been waiting for government action on that for the majority of my life at this point. It wont change because a significant portion of america just doesnt give a shit, or is cheering it on. Our country kind of sucks that way.

It's a goddamn tragedy, but the place is a war zone. Mistakes and monsters are made in a war zone and no amount of paper treaty and rules of engagement is going to completely prevent it from happening.


really? nothing ever, ever changes?

Quote:
In the aftermath of the Valdez disaster, the U.S. government led a global push to outlaw single-hull vessels.
Quote:
The International Maritime Organization, the shipping division of the United Nations, will ban single-hull tankers starting next year.


oh, but it didn't happen instantly, so it's not a change.

huh - so that thing tinkeringIdiot posted, about the head of joint special operations apologizing for the death of civilians, AT THE SCENE OF THE KILLINGS - well, clearly, that has nothing to do with change. and that admiral, i'm sure he's happy to go out and do that, he's sure not going to agitate for any change in how military operations are done.

i guess that's why we still have slavery and child labor and women can't even own property, because nothing anyone does ever changes anything.

and certainly we don't view the wars in iraq and afghanistan any differently than people did vietnam in 1963 and 64. no, all those protesters just wasted their time. no change in public opinion about wars at all, since then.

yeah, you're right, monkey. best to sit on our butts and just accept any outrage that happens. because nothing in the course of human history has ever changed as a result of public opinion.
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