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Education decimation: Thank You, Florida!
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have already suggested that the tests will be flawed from the beginning and that the tests for low income schools will have to be scored differently. Tests are never perfect but there has to be a system that will work!

So tell me, what are your ideas for a system that will function and motivate our teachers to improve?

Sorry for all the posts. The blackberry has some strange character limit.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No standardised tests. Motivated teachers who grade their motivated personnel.

The only other thing I can think of is repeatedly testing their knowledge, maybe some yearly exam. And make sure to open up some extra channel so that children can complain about their teachers if they feel they've been treated unjustly (is that a "deacon" in English? someone like that). But I'm pretty sure schools already have that.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't just test their knowledge, you have to test their teaching ability as well. I have met many teacher that knew their shit but coulldn't explain it worth a damn. I've also known teachers that didn't know much more than the basics but could teach the concepts clearly and thoroughly.

Colleges base tenure decisions (eeeeew tenure) at least partially on evals from the students. I am not sure why that would not work in this case too.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imagine Bart grading Ms Krabappel
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On standardized tests: are those currently used for anything other than statistics? Funding or something?

I don't think standardized tests aren't going to go away unless there is a standardized curiculum. The statistics between schools is just too valuable. We do need to see what areas need help even if the tests are flawed. Not that we have actuallly paid attention to them... Or maybe we don't have people that are educated in the right techniques.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Imagine Bart grading Ms Krabappel

So? Of course there will be kids that will evaluate down just because they don't like school as this is a problem with a captive audience. But I really don't think that it is impossible to implement an evaluation system. How else are you going to know how someone teaches if you don't ask the people that are being taught? Even in a business, it is the 360 degree evaluation that is best imho - bosses, underlings, etc
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Willem



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
I don't think standardized tests aren't going to go away unless there is a standardized curiculum.[/color]

Well, there's an idea.
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because students don't like good teachers. They like easy-grading and amicable teachers.


The only method I have ever thought would work to evaluate teachers (though I don't know that it is practical) is like the one described in Freakonomics. It would involve yearly exams, but teachers would not be rewarded just for the performance of their students that year. Teachers would be rewarded for the sustained success of their former students. Such rewards would be increased if the student had struggled previously, but then turned it around and sustained higher scores.

The reason is that if a student shows a sudden and marked improvement one year but then struggles the following year, their improvement was a mirage created by teaching to the test. However, if a student shows improvement one year and sustains high levels of achievement, then the teacher has likely done a good job of teaching the student the skills needed to succeed.

I'm not sure how practical a system would be but it seems to reward the right things, at least.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
Lasairfiona wrote:
I don't think standardized tests aren't going to go away unless there is a standardized curiculum.[/color]

Well, there's an idea.

but it still means standardized tests, just not the ones we have now that take all day and only touch on each subject. However I don't have a problem with standardized tests throughout the year if the tests are well written.
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picturesofsky



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Grade them on their pupil's performance.
Positives: encourages teachers to get the best from their students
Negatives: encourages teachers to teach tests, encourages teachers to work in areas with smarter children, discourages the opposite

2) Grade them on their performance (e.g. via school inspections)
Positives: encourages teachers to perform well
Negatives: Starts a cycle when a school is scored poorly whereby good teachers leave and it can never recover.


Basically, any method of performance related pay for teachers is fundamentally flawed.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the system but
Mizike wrote:
Because students don't like good teachers. They like easy-grading and amicable teachers.

I UTTERLY disagree with this. This says that children are basically lazy and uninterested in learning. Everything I know says that is wrong. Children want to be challenged! It is when there is no challenge, nor motivation, that children become apathetic.
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picturesofsky



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a vast and sweeping, unapplicable statement.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

posky wrote:
Basically any method of performance based pay for teachers is fundamentally flawed.

I do not believe that a good evaluation system cannot exist. We have to have a way to eval and remove bad teachers. And when this system exists, you can base pay on it. In fact, I don't think we can't attract a large amout of good teachers without performanced base pay.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
posky wrote:
Basically any method of performance based pay for teachers is fundamentally flawed.

I do not believe that a good evaluation system cannot exist. We have to have a way to eval and remove bad teachers. And when this system exists, you can base pay on it. In fact, I don't think we can't attract a large amout of good teachers without performanced base pay.

No, Steve is right. Basically, what he said. That doesn't mean you don't have to evaluate the teachers. This should obviously happen. School inspection and all that. But it shouldn't affect their pay.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
The only method I have ever thought would work to evaluate teachers (though I don't know that it is practical) is like the one described in Freakonomics. It would involve yearly exams, but teachers would not be rewarded just for the performance of their students that year. Teachers would be rewarded for the sustained success of their former students. Such rewards would be increased if the student had struggled previously, but then turned it around and sustained higher scores.

When a student has new teachers every year (or in my high school every semester), how do you determine which teacher is being successful? This isn't a method to evaluate teachers granularly, but perhaps the performance of a school in general. But then again, as was said before, schools with more money tend to score better on tests, thus their merit is perceived to be higher and they get more funding, etc. etc.
With the US sliding way behind other industrialized nations in education there should be plenty of other, more successful models for us to look at without having to totally reinvent the wheel.
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