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Smoke on the water (Israel forces board ships)
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Willem



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I completely disagree with this. If you instigate an action that you know the result of which will be violence, to yourself or others your action isn't peaceful, its inflammatory.

That's profoundly stupid, Monkey. You're preaching for 'Might makes right'. You're saying that if your actions result in violence, you're to blame. That's victim blaming. Your line of reasoning would make any form of revolt or even civil disobedience impossible. Think about that.

Quote:
Coincidentally its why I feel a campaign of education on the actual state of the israeli/palestinian situation both in israel, the U.S. and other countries

I certainly would support such an effort. But it alone will do nothing. Not only would such an effort have to box up against an already established narrative, it would also have to box up against a powerful Israeli lobby, conservative politicians and activists everywhere, the military-industrial complex, nearly every politician in America and Israel... You can build up support over the decades, sure, but those factors won't just go away and won't go without a serious fight. And considering the money in those circles, I sincerely doubt that tactic on its own would work. I'm also pretty sure it's already being used, anyway.

There's also the question if there'll be anything left saving in a few decades.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, seriously: read that article.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
Quote:
I completely disagree with this. If you instigate an action that you know the result of which will be violence, to yourself or others your action isn't peaceful, its inflammatory.

That's profoundly stupid, Monkey. You're preaching for 'Might makes right'. You're saying that if your actions result in violence, you're to blame. That's victim blaming. Your line of reasoning would make any form of revolt or even civil disobedience impossible. Think about that.


No, its pointing out that the actions are, on their face not peaceful and are indeed intended to provoke a forceful response. The fact that they've done it once already with no real success is what wins them the sarcasm.

And I'm curious...boiling human civilization down to its purest form how "might makes right" doesn't permeate every government and code of laws ever laid out in the history of mankind. The "might" doesn't have to be a violent warmonger, it could just as easily be the masses banding together and saying (in a very summarized and simplistic fashion) "Don't rock the boat or we'll imprison or kill you". Every law in history has been backed up by the implicit threat of society using its might against you if you don't toe the line. The line itself varies from place to place


Now, if you want to discuss whether I think peaceful protests are the right (by which i mean fastest) means on their face to change the situation thats a different discussion. Revolt and civil disobedience doesn't have to be "peaceful" to exist.

Edit: I did read the article it has some interesting points
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And before it goes too much further Willem i want to say that i'm really enjoying this discussion.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to know how you came to the conclusion that provoking a forceful reaction is their goal. It's a risk, one they're willing to take.

Their goal is to run the illegal blockade of Gaza and get publicity while doing it. That publicity may come after they're all shot by Israeli commandos, but it'd be dishonest to say that's their goal.

Quote:
And I'm curious...

That's beside the point, aside from indeed being summarised and simplistic. Ignore the 'might makes right' line for a second and focus on 'You're saying that if your actions result in violence, you're to blame.'.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
And before it goes too much further Willem i want to say that i'm really enjoying this discussion.

Always glad to talk about the matter. Smile
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
I'd love to know how you came to the conclusion that provoking a forceful reaction is their goal. It's a risk, one they're willing to take.

Their goal is to run the illegal blockade of Gaza and get publicity while doing it. That publicity may come after they're all shot by Israeli commandos, but it'd be dishonest to say that's their goal.

Quote:
And I'm curious...

That's beside the point, aside from indeed being summarised and simplistic. Ignore the 'might makes right' line for a second and focus on 'You're saying that if your actions result in violence, you're to blame.'.


No I'm saying that if you know ahead of time your actions will more than likely result in violence you bear some measure of responsibility for that violence occuring, especially if it has happened before and as a result you have a strong reason to believe violence will occur.

And lets just say that the illegality of the blockade by international law isn't exactly uncontested fact shaky legal ground maybe, but strictly illegal..no.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:


So basically nothing but vague diplomatic threats about how the U.S. will look like dicks. Tell me, will we look more or less like dicks than when we invaded Iraq? People will somehow ...what? What negative has come to china over their human rights record? The rest of the world still trades and invests there right? So.....I guess I just don't buy the whole diplomatic backlash thing, if it didn't happen over bush getting your soldiers killed i highly doubt it will happen over a group of people most of the rest of the world, sadly, don't really care about other than the fact that they sit on and or around oil reserves.


Monkey, it's all fine and dandy to be angry, or not caring, with the rest of the world not agreeing with your views. But equalling diplomatic backlash with contemptuous stares shows an ignorance, willfull or not, or an attempt to goad others into trollish replies, far beyond the usual norm in these forums.

On a basic level, it's very hard to condemn, to pick the countries you mentionned, Russia for "liberating" South Ossetia from the clutches of Georgia when your country just did the same thing few years before in Iraq. It'll be very, very hard to get others to stare China down from taking Spratleys and Paracelses by might pretty soon. Does these matter to the average Joe. Except in the wallet, no it will not.

On a military level, ignoring others had consequences in the past. Turkey closing it's bases + airspace during 2nd Iraq war comes to mind. That too had a cost.

On an economic level, all other things being equal, it's harder to sell your company's factories abroad when your nation is at odds. Browbeating poor countries is still possible, but they're not always the markets you're looking for...If you're competing with say, Germany, you're at a disadvantage.

On a political level, and to focus again on the area. Ignoring others, and their backers, can have untold consequences. Although this doesn't directly affect your neighbour in Wisconsin, this too have a cost (increasing security in an airport doesn't come free). An increase in funds from Hamas/Hezbollah backers to raise the stakes doesn't seem too far fetched an idea to me. This would tie up nicely with the bloody clampdown in Syria btw.

The timeframe involved will not be the same, but there will be some reckogning. If you really want to ignore all of that fine by me.

That's really the 101 course. So let's assume goverments knows this and move on.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry you feel angry, or that its attempting to elicit trollish replies when y'all are challenged to back up the things you say here sam2. Unfortunately I at least am able to provide historical backup to my reasoning that I don't believe flotilla2 electric boogaloo will accomplish anything but maybe get more people hurt. I'm also able to provide at the least decent reasoning as to why a campaign of education might show more promise toward resolving the situation than further provocation of a nation that operates with the psychology of a group of people who narrowly escaped genocide.

Besides which the turkish government was like 10 votes shy of letting them use their bases, and it still remains the major route for the u.s. military entering and leaving Iraq, and your other two examples are base speculation. Economically you're assuming that countries put principle before profit, this seems to fly pretty heavily in the face of established history, especially when the principle has little or nothing to do with domestic affairs. Politically? Well the hornets nest has already been kicked. Actions in pakistan, afghanistan, and Iraq already warrant increased airport security, but i guess we'll see in the next 5 to 10 years.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I'm sorry you feel angry, or that its attempting to elicit trollish replies when y'all are challenged to back up the things you say here sam2. Unfortunately I at least am able to provide historical backup to my reasoning that I don't believe flotilla2 electric boogaloo will accomplish anything but maybe get more people hurt.


Challenge accepted.

Please provide examples, and links when said examples aren't common knowledge to why we must all bow to your flawless reasoning. And if you want for me to backup my claims above with links, or threads in here, you just have to ask.

Ftr, I am not angry at you yet. But really, please stop trolling or try to goad us into emo replies. If you start behaving like Thy or Him, you'll be treated as such.
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Mr_Moustache



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey always did, just little enough to never get noticed in comparison.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Unfortunately I at least am able to provide historical backup to my reasoning that I don't believe flotilla2 electric boogaloo will accomplish anything but maybe get more people hurt.


I would say it's practically impossible to assert that the flotilla strat is accomplishing nothing, even if I don't personally believe that it's likely to significantly impede Israel's goal of purging/reclaiming. A lot of things are like that, where they make some progress in some areas but only provide ammunition/impetus on other fronts. Even if it's only shifting the conflict around, that's still accomplishing something.

Even if it's not (as I yet imagine) going to be successful.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I'm sorry you feel angry, or that its attempting to elicit trollish replies when y'all are challenged to back up the things you say here sam2. Unfortunately I at least am able to provide historical backup to my reasoning that I don't believe flotilla2 electric boogaloo will accomplish anything but maybe get more people hurt.


Challenge accepted.

Please provide examples, and links when said examples aren't common knowledge to why we must all bow to your flawless reasoning. And if you want for me to backup my claims above with links, or threads in here, you just have to ask.

Ftr, I am not angry at you yet. But really, please stop trolling or try to goad us into emo replies. If you start behaving like Thy or Him, you'll be treated as such.


Well for starters, the flotilla actually needs to not be detained by other authorities before it even gets anywhere near gaza

Or be sabotaged in turkey

Or find themselves seized under accusations of being purchased with "terrorist funds"

Gosh look at all these flotilla ships that people talk about setting sail with but never actually manage to get out of port.

Man its almost like they can't even get out of port to get this flotilla rolling.

Sam wrote:
Even if it's only shifting the conflict around, that's still accomplishing something.


As I said, unlikely to accomplish anything except maybe get people hurt.

You first have to wonder how they're planning to "sneak past" the Israeli navy with as much publicity as they've made of it, and despite multiple governments saying not to, and some governments tracking the movement of the ships, how they plan to deal with the inevitability of encountering a military ship. But all that is beside the point, given that so many ships have already basically been cock blocked from travel, the past attempt at running the blockade, and the fact that we live in an era where people can see you from space with satellites, I'm now curious as to what Willem and Sam2 can bring to the table to make a case for this action accomplishing anything productive.
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kame



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
But all that is beside the point, given that so many ships have already basically been cock blocked from travel, the past attempt at running the blockade, and the fact that we live in an era where people can see you from space with satellites, I'm now curious as to what Willem and Sam2 can bring to the table to make a case for this action accomplishing anything productive.


It will get people talking about the legality of the naval blockade against Gaza.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems they have been. Also seems the U.N. already kind of made a decision on it.
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