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prop 8 overturned
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Fhqwhgads



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Gary wrote:
Is that true, though? Wouldn't they be equally scandalised & vociferous in their opposition to harem relationships, etc? Not important mind, I feel I'm kind of intruding in here with irrelevancy.

my understanding, and anybody feel free to shout me down if I am wrong here, is that the religious constituency is of the opinion that marriage is ordained by god and therefore not open to redefinition by mankind.

in which case, harems and teh gay and poly, etc etc, all bad. one man, one woman only. altho they didn't appear to be quite as outraged at the LDS crew in utah that had all the polygamy going on, so what the hell do I know.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rhetoric that flies around whenever you talk about Prop. 8 is almost always tied to "standing up for Christ," so at least they feel there's a religious component to keeping gays unmarried. 'Cos being gay is sinful and all that. If we let gays marry, and marriage is based solely on Christianity, (to them), that just means the gays have started taking over! We've got to stand up to those unrepentant sinners, not accommodate them! Why, that'd just be defining sin away and teaching our chil'ins that it's not a sin, it's acceptable or even normal!

Why yes, religious fundamentalism and sectarianism is entirely too entangled with politics over here. It's utterly ridiculous. I really sympathize with the folks who coined the phrase "American Taliban," even if I don't quite agree with it. For a nation with a supposedly secular government, the act of politicking by and large relies too much on establishing one's church cred.

Say what you want about polygamy (as long as you don't do it!), but at least marriage between a man and one or more women is the only kind you'll find in the Bible, in the predominantly European culture from which American culture is mish-mashed, and the all-important "traditional family," whether that's the 20th century Nuclear Family or the pre-20th century Extended Family. As far as The USA's history is concerned, same-sex marriage is virtually unprecedented. We're painfully slow in recognizing that the anti-gay stance is ugly and baseless prejudice, let alone that gays might have some legitimate claim to marriage. I'm optimistic we'll move past it, if not so optimistic about the time scales involved. I'd love it if we could just flip a switch and overnight everybody's over it, but that ain't gonna happen.
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
No one at work is even mentioning this. Kinda feels like it's against etiquette to get into anything political. Which believe me, I'm perfectly fine with!

I have brought it up to a select number of people and no one was anywhere near as excited as I am. In fact, one person had reservations about the whole thing. He was saying that kids brought up in homosexual marriages would be more... homosexual because they would see it all the time. I told him the data just doesn't hold that up and in fact the percentage of kids brought up in homosexual households were less likely to be homosexual (for kids adopted; genetics not actually being passed on). If we accept that homosexuality isn't a choice (he was willing to accept that), then what is important is the stability of the family, not the sex of the members in the family.

He then asked where things stopped: bestiality, polygamy, incest... I pointed out that all of those had negatives that homosexual relationships done namely that there is an abuse of power. Animals can't consent, polygamy has a bad history of power abuse though if that was not an issue I would have no problem with it, and incest always has an abuse of power. Homosexual relationships have no negatives that do not exist in all healthy relationships. He could agree with that too.

And this guy is intelligent. It just seems that they want to believe what logically makes sense but they have to talked through it. And more studies about the relationships can be published.

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Unnamed?



Joined: 14 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
I have brought it up to a select number of people and no one was anywhere near as excited as I am.


How old were these people you spoke to? I'd imagine that a younger demographic would be generally more excited about the turn of events.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I brought it up to two people my own age:
"Oh that is cool. I didn't know that it was on trial but that is cool." <- Most excited response I got.
"That was in the courts? Meh whatever."

People my age down here don't seem to care either, even though most of them are implants. Sigh.

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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there's some built-in apathy already since this is a political issue
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just watched the Daily Show from Friday, and Stewart's coverage of Prop 8 was typically hilarious and nearly perfect. I liked the video of the lady who supported prop 8 calling Judge Walker biased, but when Anderson Cooper asked why he was biased she said, "I don't know."
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Chocolatefan



Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
I just watched the Daily Show from Friday, and Stewart's coverage of Prop 8 was typically hilarious and nearly perfect. I liked the video of the lady who supported prop 8 calling Judge Walker biased, but when Anderson Cooper asked why he was biased she said, "I don't know."

There are so many of this kind of people, including for other issues. They should just listen to themselves.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've introduced a lot of kneejerk reactions into the popular conscience, and they tend to seem rational when we fall victim to them and hilarious when we observe them.
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Set



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WONT SOMEBODY THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN?

nah actually, they'll be alright. seriously.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fhqwhgads wrote:
altho they didn't appear to be quite as outraged at the LDS crew in utah that had all the polygamy going on, so what the hell do I know.


that's probably because the mormons were the one who really pushed the proposition and poured money into getting it passed. and paying for the ads. so they sorta kept all that polygamy history on the down-low.

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Say what you want about polygamy (as long as you don't do it!), but at least marriage between a man and one or more women is the only kind you'll find in the Bible


actually, there's a whole lot of polygamy in the bible. last christmas i was reading my brother's copy of r. crumbs' illustrated book of genesis* - i think just about everyone except adam either had multiple wives (although sometimes it was their handmaiden, i.e., slave - but it was all about the procreation thing) - that, or sleeping with their daughters.

and the new testament seems to be almost entire anti-marriage. jesus wasn't married, you don't hear anything about any of the disciples being married (and if they were, they just up and ran off from their wives) - paul allows as how you can get married if you really must, but if you were _really_ devout, you would be celibate (like him). so i'm not sure how solid the ground is for the whole marriage-as-god-intended thing.

not that that stops anyone.


*just 'cause it's got pictures doesn't mean it's not accurate.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Say what you want about polygamy (as long as you don't do it!), but at least marriage between a man and one or more women is the only kind you'll find in the Bible


actually, there's a whole lot of polygamy in the bible.

See bolded.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Gary wrote:
Yay & stuff everyone. Just one phrase keeps catching my eye, and my tiny under-educated brain keeps asking the same question, some of you sociological types might answer for me.

WTF is the traditional family and how traditional is it? Surely the nuclear family is historically a recent invention, like the steam engine or Jersey Shore?

Anyway ...


traditional marriage is like what ozzie and harriet had, and the beav grew up in. that thing that all these people grew up watching on tv, which always perfectly reflects reality as it has always been.

yet another interesting editorial - by the nytime's conservative pundit, of all things. of course, he does end up concluding that lifelong heterosexual marriage is a unique and indispensable estate, worth honoring and preserving...after he demonstrates that it really isn't the standard, is most often honored in the breach, and not actually all that effective at the things it's supposed to do. worth reading to watch the dancing, though.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
mouse wrote:
WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Say what you want about polygamy (as long as you don't do it!), but at least marriage between a man and one or more women is the only kind you'll find in the Bible


actually, there's a whole lot of polygamy in the bible.

See bolded.


what, you blather on with all those words and you expect me to read EVERY SINGLE ONE???
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankly I was shocked California of all places would become a battle ground over gay marriage in the first place.

If I hear one more religious zealot claim a monopoly on the concept of marriage I'm going to vomit. It's a fucking cultural universal. Christians didn't invent it. Muslims didn't invent it. Hell no one even knows when it was first practiced it's a fair bet it is at least as old as human culture. With newer discoveries in southern africa you can push that from the "European flowering" forty thousand years ago to upwards of 160 thousand years ago. No Christians back then....

Hell it's not like they made it illegal for religious people to call homosexuality wrong. It's not like they are making poor catholic priests marry gay people in their church. God forbid anyone tell a person of belief that their beliefs are biggoted on their home ground. Of course what we got to show for that was those very same people feeling so comfortable in their shielded biggotry they could foist it off on the general public.

Maybe it's because I'm an atheist or maybe it's part of the reason I am one... But I cannot understand how a thinking human being can look at homosexuality as evil. Is it possible to draw the line in unthinking faith when it contributes to the sum total of misery in the world? Is it really so bad to question beliefs that clearly do that? Is it okay to tell groups of the faithful in countries that are enduring decades of famine to be fruitful and multiply when you know they can't even feed themselves now?

I know not all religious people have issues with homosexuals or prophylactics, but maybe instead of getting defensive about these indictments they should be the loudest voices against these excesses.
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